Does anyone think George Zimmerman is guilty of murder?

[Beanz]

[QUOTE=Beanflicker;1214910]

When you live in a country where firearms are not seen as necessary or desirable then a story in which one civilian shoots another dead outside of his home is met with disbelief.

Ok well take the gun out of the equation.

Lets create a complete hypothetical and we'll transplant this whole incident over to England. Everything's the same, only the ending is changed. George Zimmerman, being from England, he doesn't have a gun. Instead, while Trayvon is on top of him throwing punches, he grabs a broken beer bottle that was lying near his head, stabs Trayvon in the chest, and Trayvon drops dead on the lawn.

Does this change how you feel about the situation?

That is a very clumsy comparison. You are transplanting an armed assailant following an innocent civilian into a situation in which he is suddenly "the victim". An English citizen would not take the law into their own hands and follow someone simply because they were Black, unless they were a Police officer. Armed response units in the UK have firearms not broken bottles.

[El Kabong]

That is a very clumsy comparison. You are transplanting an armed assailant following an innocent civilian into a situation in which he is suddenly "the victim". An English citizen would not take the law into their own hands and follow someone simply because they were Black, unless they were a Police officer. Armed response units in the UK have firearms not broken bottles.

#1 "An English person wouldn't" is an ASSUMPTION. Also if we're going to base things on assumptions then if I followed an English person would they physically attack me? If they wouldn't then there would have been 0 problem whether I had a gun or not.

#2 Zimmerman didn't follow Trayvon "because he was black" he followed him because A) There had been several break ins and robberies in the area and B ) Trayvon was wondering around aimlessly in an apartment complex where there had been several break ins in the rain

#3 How long does it take the police to arrive in your area Beanz? If you were in the process of being robbed would they arrive DURING your robbery or AFTER your robbery? The police are there to apprehend wrongdoers not prevent crime...a GUN prevents crime.

[Fenster]

"A GUN prevents crime"

[VictorCharlie]

"A GUN prevents crime"

Concealed Carry Means Fewer Murders, Says New Study - Hit & Run : Reason.com

[El Kabong]

"A GUN prevents crime"

Concealed Carry Means Fewer Murders, Says New Study - Hit & Run : Reason.com

OK Fenster, let's say you are a criminal would you rather rob someone in a place where guns are illegal and law abiding citizens are 100% unarmed OR would you rather press your luck in a place where who knows who could be packing heat. Riddle me that before you laugh off "guns prevent crime"

[Fenster]

"A GUN prevents crime"

Concealed Carry Means Fewer Murders, Says New Study - Hit & Run : Reason.com

OK Fenster, let's say you are a criminal would you rather rob someone in a place where guns are illegal and law abiding citizens are 100% unarmed OR would you rather press your luck in a place where who knows who could be packing heat. Riddle me that before you laugh off "guns prevent crime"

Do guns prevent unarmed criminal activity in your part of the world? No. Why? Because criminals are criminals, regardless.

I don't have a problem with you owning guns. If I lived in your lunatic part of the world I probably would too. But guns clearly don't prevent crime. You can produce statistics until the cows come home, but you know the reality is crime will happen with or without guns. A gun just makes it easier to be a criminal.

[El Kabong]

You see guns from 1 side Fenster and that's the problem. You see guns and automatically think bad guys have them because that's what young children in the UK are taught. Guns are bad because they are illegal and only bad people have them.

Well I hate to break it to you and the rest of the world but guns level the playing field when it comes to crime. If a criminal tries to rob a person who has a concealed carry then there's a few things that can/will happen but mainly it's either 1. The criminal sees the gun and runs away OR 2. The criminal is shot wounded/killed.

You don't like guns fine, England doesn't like guns fine....but don't you fucking DARE try and tell Americans how to live we'll do as we damn well please. Nothing has changed since 1776, we didn't want your noses in our business then and we don't care for them in our business now. And if you have a problem with that tough shit we have guns and we fucking LOVE them!

[Beanz]

"The gun just made things worse"

[El Kabong]

"The gun just made things worse"

Punching Zimmerman in the face made things worse FACT. Run and hide, fine. Ask Zimmerman why he's following you, fine. Randomly punch a guy just for following you...WRONG. How do you not fucking grasp that?

[Beanz]

"The gun just made things worse"

[El Kabong]

"The gun just made things worse"

OK, let's run with that premise....and if there is no gun and Trayvon killed Zimmerman? What then? Zimmerman still an evil guy? The "concrete made things worse"?


Be a simpleton if you want to, no skin off my back

[Beanz]

Lyle I am not judging you or America if you want to align yourself with George Zimmermann then whoopee doo for you, your hero is alive, hooray!

[El Kabong]

Lyle I am not judging you or America if you want to align yourself with George Zimmermann then whoopee doo for you, your hero is alive, hooray!

What is your problem? You're so hung up on this shit you can't see the main point and the main point is the COURT CASE. Because court cases have implications for other citizens!

To me it's not about black & white, it's not about Trayvon & Zimmerman, it's not about youth vs age, it's not about stand your ground, I take all that out of the equation and just focus on THE FACTS.

Just the facts, no emotions.

Person A follows person B. Person B grows suspicious. Person B assaults person A. That is the point at which a crime has been committed. Person A feels their life is in danger and uses a weapon to end the threat. the weapon causes the death of Person B.

That is it, that is the case devoid of any of the bullshit everyone placed on it and you still have a hair up your ass about it, why you care is beyond me but you go right ahead.