Does anyone think George Zimmerman is guilty of murder?

[Fenster]

The gun just made things worse.

Or possibly saved Zimmerman's life. Whether you think he deserved it or not is another story but he did have a young man on top of him bashing his head into the curb. Had the story been "Latino man beaten by black teen finally taken off life support due to no brain activity" it would have been equally or more tragic.

Yes that's possible. Maybe Martin was going to beat him to death. However, listening to the tapes of Zimmerman crying for help when he was confronted also throws up the possibility that, if he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place he wouldn't have shown such bravado/confidence/arrogance in tracking Martin.

Therefore, the gun still causes a huge problem in this story. This whole tragic event only took place because a man had a gun. I assume Zimmerman felt great remorse for being forced to shoot someone dead.

[El Kabong]

The gun just made things worse.

Or possibly saved Zimmerman's life. Whether you think he deserved it or not is another story but he did have a young man on top of him bashing his head into the curb. Had the story been "Latino man beaten by black teen finally taken off life support due to no brain activity" it would have been equally or more tragic.

Yes that's possible. Maybe Martin was going to beat him to death. However, listening to the tapes of Zimmerman crying for help when he was confronted also throws up the possibility that, if he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place he wouldn't have shown such bravado/confidence/arrogance in tracking Martin.

Therefore, the gun still causes a huge problem in this story. This whole tragic event only took place because a man had a gun. I assume Zimmerman felt great remorse for being forced to shoot someone dead.

He was sucker punched and following someone doesn't require a gun or weapon at all.

[Fenster]

The gun just made things worse.

Or possibly saved Zimmerman's life. Whether you think he deserved it or not is another story but he did have a young man on top of him bashing his head into the curb. Had the story been "Latino man beaten by black teen finally taken off life support due to no brain activity" it would have been equally or more tragic.

Yes that's possible. Maybe Martin was going to beat him to death. However, listening to the tapes of Zimmerman crying for help when he was confronted also throws up the possibility that, if he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place he wouldn't have shown such bravado/confidence/arrogance in tracking Martin.

Therefore, the gun still causes a huge problem in this story. This whole tragic event only took place because a man had a gun. I assume Zimmerman felt great remorse for being forced to shoot someone dead.

He was sucker punched and following someone doesn't require a gun or weapon at all.

If having the gun isn't relevant why carry it?

[VictorCharlie]

The gun just made things worse.

Or possibly saved Zimmerman's life. Whether you think he deserved it or not is another story but he did have a young man on top of him bashing his head into the curb. Had the story been "Latino man beaten by black teen finally taken off life support due to no brain activity" it would have been equally or more tragic.

Yes that's possible. Maybe Martin was going to beat him to death. However, listening to the tapes of Zimmerman crying for help when he was confronted also throws up the possibility that, if he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place he wouldn't have shown such bravado/confidence/arrogance in tracking Martin.

Therefore, the gun still causes a huge problem in this story. This whole tragic event only took place because a man had a gun. I assume Zimmerman felt great remorse for being forced to shoot someone dead.

That is pretty presumptuous. Zimmerman doesn't strike me as someone that shows good judgement. I think he would have followed him armed or not.

Thankfully he didn't have a trident.
Man Throws Trident Spear Through Robber's Head | The Libertarian Republic

[VictorCharlie]

The gun just made things worse.

Or possibly saved Zimmerman's life. Whether you think he deserved it or not is another story but he did have a young man on top of him bashing his head into the curb. Had the story been "Latino man beaten by black teen finally taken off life support due to no brain activity" it would have been equally or more tragic.

Yes that's possible. Maybe Martin was going to beat him to death. However, listening to the tapes of Zimmerman crying for help when he was confronted also throws up the possibility that, if he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place he wouldn't have shown such bravado/confidence/arrogance in tracking Martin.

Therefore, the gun still causes a huge problem in this story. This whole tragic event only took place because a man had a gun. I assume Zimmerman felt great remorse for being forced to shoot someone dead.

He was sucker punched and following someone doesn't require a gun or weapon at all.

If having the gun isn't relevant why carry it?

Why not?

[Fenster]

The gun just made things worse.

Or possibly saved Zimmerman's life. Whether you think he deserved it or not is another story but he did have a young man on top of him bashing his head into the curb. Had the story been "Latino man beaten by black teen finally taken off life support due to no brain activity" it would have been equally or more tragic.

Yes that's possible. Maybe Martin was going to beat him to death. However, listening to the tapes of Zimmerman crying for help when he was confronted also throws up the possibility that, if he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place he wouldn't have shown such bravado/confidence/arrogance in tracking Martin.

Therefore, the gun still causes a huge problem in this story. This whole tragic event only took place because a man had a gun. I assume Zimmerman felt great remorse for being forced to shoot someone dead.

That is pretty presumptuous. Zimmerman doesn't strike me as someone that shows good judgement. I think he would have followed him armed or not.

Thankfully he didn't have a trident.
Man Throws Trident Spear Through Robber's Head | The Libertarian Republic

Maybe Martin wouldn't have beat him to death and we'd never even know about the incident.

[VictorCharlie]

Well since we know Martin was unaware of Zimmerman's firearm then we do know that Martin would have assaulted him regardless if there was a firearm present or not. I think maybe that is what Lyle meant by it wasn't relevant.

[Beanz]

Why all this bending over backwards to justify Zimmerman? If he was not armed it is highly unlikely he would gave shown such poor judgement. What kind of land of the free is it where people follow you around as though they are doing the community a service? If their are no witnesses to the initial confrontation why assume that Zimmermann was the victim? It's only because it suits peoples agenda that they assume Martin threw the first punch, that is a lot of presumption. If George pushed him, attempted to wrestle him or verbally threatened him the whole situation becomes far less cut and dry. Zimmerman was not threatened with a gun or faced with an intruder in his home and yet he is being portrayed as the poor wronged victim.

[Fenster]

Well since we know Martin was unaware of Zimmerman's firearm then we do know that Martin would have assaulted him regardless if there was a firearm present or not. I think maybe that is what Lyle meant by it wasn't relevant.

Which means the possibility of someone having a firearm wasn't a deterrent. Confrontations happen regardless.

[VictorCharlie]

Why all this bending over backwards to justify Zimmerman? If he was not armed it is highly unlikely he would gave shown such poor judgement. What kind of land of the free is it where people follow you around as though they are doing the community a service? If their are no witnesses to the initial confrontation why assume that Zimmermann was the victim? It's only because it suits peoples agenda that they assume Martin threw the first punch, that is a lot of presumption. If George pushed him, attempted to wrestle him or verbally threatened him the whole situation becomes far less cut and dry. Zimmerman was not threatened with a gun or faced with an intruder in his home and yet he is being portrayed as the poor wronged victim.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind the first bolded part. I don't see how him following someone at night that fit the description of the person committing theft and vandalism in the neighborhood is predicated on him being armed. Hell I've confronted people in my neighborhood that I didn't recognize. Now I didn't do it Zimmerman style, I said "Howdy, I'm VC and live down the road are you new to neighborhood?" I caught a kid stealing my weedeater out of my garage and chased him down the street before tackling his ass. Not only was I not armed I didn't even have shoes on. I just don't buy the whole if he hadn't had a gun it never would have happened. As far as the rest of it, I'm not trying to make Zimmerman out to be someone to feel sorry for but per what the jury (arguably the people most familiar with the facts of the case) found to be true only Martin committed a crime by doubling back and assaulting Zimmerman. The jury didn't find any compelling evidence that Zimmerman acted aggressively so that is what I have to go off of.

[VictorCharlie]

Well since we know Martin was unaware of Zimmerman's firearm then we do know that Martin would have assaulted him regardless if there was a firearm present or not. I think maybe that is what Lyle meant by it wasn't relevant.

Which means the possibility of someone having a firearm wasn't a deterrent. Confrontations happen regardless.

The link I posted earlier had a study showing the correlation between gun ownership and lowered crime not to mention the Brady Institute (pro-gun control org) had a study showing that firearms are used 10x more often to stop and/or prevent crime than used in homicides. We as an armed society see a net positive from our gun ownership but that doesn't sell newspapers.

Anyway, I agree, confrontations will happen no matter what we do. I'd like the ability to defend myself as needed and Zimmerman may be on a breathing machine if he hadn't been armed.

[Master]

How many accidental deaths have there been in the house?

[Beanz]

Why all this bending over backwards to justify Zimmerman? If he was not armed it is highly unlikely he would gave shown such poor judgement. What kind of land of the free is it where people follow you around as though they are doing the community a service? If their are no witnesses to the initial confrontation why assume that Zimmermann was the victim? It's only because it suits peoples agenda that they assume Martin threw the first punch, that is a lot of presumption. If George pushed him, attempted to wrestle him or verbally threatened him the whole situation becomes far less cut and dry. Zimmerman was not threatened with a gun or faced with an intruder in his home and yet he is being portrayed as the poor wronged victim.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind the first bolded part. I don't see how him following someone at night that fit the description of the person committing theft and vandalism in the neighborhood is predicated on him being armed. Hell I've confronted people in my neighborhood that I didn't recognize. Now I didn't do it Zimmerman style, I said "Howdy, I'm VC and live down the road are you new to neighborhood?" I caught a kid stealing my weedeater out of my garage and chased him down the street before tackling his ass. Not only was I not armed I didn't even have shoes on. I just don't buy the whole if he hadn't had a gun it never would have happened. As far as the rest of it, I'm not trying to make Zimmerman out to be someone to feel sorry for but per what the jury (arguably the people most familiar with the facts of the case) found to be true only Martin committed a crime by doubling back and assaulting Zimmerman. The jury didn't find any compelling evidence that Zimmerman acted aggressively so that is what I have to go off of.

With respect Zimmerman seems like the polar opposite of yourself. It seems that in his case the gun gave him Dutch courage and he ended up putting himself into a situation that he could not handle. If he could not be confident of tackling Martin he should have walked away. Instead he set himself up as judge and jury and ended up being the executioner.

[El Kabong]

With respect Zimmerman seems like the polar opposite of yourself. It seems that in his case the gun gave him Dutch courage and he ended up putting himself into a situation that he could not handle. If he could not be confident of tackling Martin he should have walked away. Instead he set himself up as judge and jury and ended up being the executioner.

Again more assumptions. "Putting himself in a situation he could not handle" how can you tell before there's any confrontation? Also if he felt that way during the verbal confrontation Zimmerman would have been the one aiming to calm things down regardless of his carrying a gun.

It was a horrible situation, both parties did stupid things, and someone wound up dead.


But it was NOT murder, it was NOT manslaughter, because Zimmerman was defending himself after being physically attacked. Had Trayvon NOT punched George then yes, Murder, life sentence or death penalty, easy case....but that didn't happen.

You are really trying to twist this into George Zimmerman should be sent to jail. Which is not justice and it sets a horrible precedent for anyone attempting to defend themselves. Sorry Beanz but I side with Self Defense and that is why I really don't get what your argument is. Had Zimmerman punched Trayvon once in retaliation and killed him what then? Would you want his hands cut off?

[Beanz]

With respect Zimmerman seems like the polar opposite of yourself. It seems that in his case the gun gave him Dutch courage and he ended up putting himself into a situation that he could not handle. If he could not be confident of tackling Martin he should have walked away. Instead he set himself up as judge and jury and ended up being the executioner.

Again more assumptions. "Putting himself in a situation he could not handle" how can you tell before there's any confrontation? Also if he felt that way during the verbal confrontation Zimmerman would have been the one aiming to calm things down regardless of his carrying a gun.

It was a horrible situation, both parties did stupid things, and someone wound up dead.


But it was NOT murder, it was NOT manslaughter, because Zimmerman was defending himself after being physically attacked. Had Trayvon NOT punched George then yes, Murder, life sentence or death penalty, easy case....but that didn't happen.

You are really trying to twist this into George Zimmerman should be sent to jail. Which is not justice and it sets a horrible precedent for anyone attempting to defend themselves. Sorry Beanz but I side with Self Defense and that is why I really don't get what your argument is. Had Zimmerman punched Trayvon once in retaliation and killed him what then? Would you want his hands cut off?

That is BS and you know it. In you over eagerness to justify and defend anybody using a gun you are making huge assumptions in order to justify a Gun owner shooting somebody dead. If you have to use a gun to defend yourself against somebody that was not committing a crime you can hardly then claim self defence as an argument. Nobody witnessed the start of the altercation so why assume that a guy who was intent on following somebody was innocent of any act of aggression? Where is the self defence argument for Martin ? Is he not allowed to stand his ground or is that right only extended to the armed? You are asking everybody to suspend their disbelief and believe that Zimmerman the vigilante would suddenly become the reasonable one and despite ignoring suggestions not to take the law into his own hands would suddenly become reasonable and rational and be the one "aiming to calm things down". If he was not interested in a confrontation he should not have confronted somebody. If all it takes is a punch in the US to justify someone upping the stakes and pulling out a gun then what the hell happened to the all the men? If someone punches somebody once and that punch kills the other person then that is obviously a case of unintentional manslaughter, a crime which in neither the UK or US carries a barbaric punishment of having your hands cut off.