Russia vs Ukraine..

[Beanz]

Miles STOP, take a breath and think for one tiny second BEFORE you post. Do you really think that I am so stupid ? You are simply projecting again. The West that you speak of is not really that at all. You are talking about corrupt Government regimes and then roping the entire populace into the equation. Individuals are being sold down the river by those in charge of wielding power on both sides and you are excusing one side. Who is drinking Kool Aid now ? What a vapid and terrible cheap American metaphor that is anyway. The Americans don't want Ukraine to join the EU and neither does Russia and Yet according to you the problem is the EU? You sound like an Elitist fool every time you misinterpret a post that I make encouraging you to look at the whole picture as an excuse to portray me as some brain dead manipulated sheep. You are by far the Squarest person I know and yet you seem intent on portraying yourself as some uniquely informed rebel whose job it is to enlighten everybody else (who in your tiny little world are stupid compliant minions) whilst you swallow whole the bullshit propaganda of slimy weasels like George Galloway and Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.

I try my best to bite my tongue but at times you behave quite simply like an ill mannered idiot. I am not attacking you or Kirkland or even your precious Chomsky when You regurgitate other people's opinions, I am simply stating my own conviction that many of those behind what you like to think of as ' alternative 'points of view are actually self serving selectavists, not themselves intent on not revealing truth but rather in reality more interested in pushing their own dogma and agenda. You have dug yourself into an entrenched position ,and that shapes your viewpoint to the point of only ever reacting to any event in one way. You are becoming predictable. 12 tears it has taken you to catch up with everyone else and realise that Blair is a wanker. Despite what you assume I have been active in protesting against 'Western' intervention in places like Iraq for nearly 20 years. In 1998 I was out playing festivals around the UK singing

"Bill Clinton
fucking dictator
may be the president
but isn't the creator
fuck off America
fuck off America........"

and joining feet on the ground around Europe marching against facism which is hardly the actions of a Kool aid drinking easily manipulated shill. You can oversimplify things to your hearts content but things are never that simple.

[Gandalf]

No, I don't think you are stupid in the slightest, quite the opposite in fact and that is why I struggle to get my head around why you can't see that this has all been provoked by the West and by the West I mean the EU and the US. The EU is all sore that the corrupt former leader opted for closer ties with Russia and in turn the US is sore that 5bn dollars spent on civil unrest is potentially being tampered with. Those two things are what has caused all this. The fact that Western supported Nazi thugs also assassinated police and protestors also appears to have been largely swept under the rug. The media is terrible and in particular the British and American media which I have been following. I think most people are fairly ignorant on the issue and considering they have to work and feed families, that isn't entirely their fault, but the media is also going mental with the whole 'Russia and starting WW3 spiel'. It is irresponsible, untrue, and a sign of just how far British and American press freedom has fallen. They literally do nothing but spout the words of government officials and the illegitimate terrorist government of the Ukraine.

I agree with you that Russia is nothing saintly and would argue as much about many concentrated sources of power, but you cannot go provoking coups on the borders of a powerful nation and have militias going around beating people up. The West should be denouncing this, but is instead full flow on a demonise Putin mission. I honestly think Putin has been remarkably restrained all things considered. Would America tolerate the Russians pumping billions into Mexico and then have Mexico have Russian nukes brought in and have militia going around beating up all American expats? No, it would be terrible and of course any sane person would want that to be stopped.

You are ludicrous to be calling me square, a sheep etc when I don't follow the rulebook. Everything I do is a rejection of the rule book and that doesn't make me a maverick nor a rebel, but it does mean I am an individual. Some of it is great, some of it less so, but I am not a square. A square is accepting that plastic bags are great. A square is watching the BBC. A square is taking on a mortgage. A square is living in a hometown from birth to death. A square is wanting to fit in. I am not a square, I would inject inject heroin into my tongue and simultaneously read The Idiot by Dostoevsky upside down and back to front and write a letter using my left foot. That, my good fellow, is not square, but rounded. Some might even call it distinct, but that is neither here nor there, and is merely a distraction from the real issues.

Nothing in life is simple nor easy, but seeing how this started is not that complex. Why on earth would anyone pump 5 billion dollars into the Ukraine when that should be spent on giving the people of Detroit their pensions. This has been setup for years and labour for the EU and the land for America seems to have been the deal. It isn't cut and dry, but we know Russia has pipelines and a considerable Russian population in the Ukraine. They have relations, the Americans should certainly not be any part of this and the EU should be in it for their gas form kool-aid and that alone.

We all agree that the Ukraine should be for the Ukrainians, so bugger off Obama and bugger off Hague. What in God's name does Hague have to do with anything, what a stupid little egg head. Fix your own countries, you idiots, and allow your press some freedom. Go away EU, you unelected kleptocrats. Go away unelected coup government of the Ukraine with your white envelope bribes, Nazism, and thuggish brutality of your own people. Leave the Ukraine alone, all of you. Only people that care should be involved and at least Russia is saying 'Don't beat up our people'. They are the only ones with a genuine concern here.

[Gandalf]

Also what on earth are you talking about with Blair? I have made lots of threads about Blair over the years and I call these people out for what they are. I was always against the wars, lots of Bush threads too. It doesn't take me any time to catch up as I was there from the off. I am consistent and I am completely comfortable with my position. If I was miscuing politically I would accept your point, but I think you are wide of the mark there. The only miscue was with Obama originally, but since Obama, I have completely deprogrammed my political education and I like where my political views are now. I feel more knowledgeable than ever before and it comes from a wide range of inputs, left, right, and centre.

You cannot be a maverick as there are other people who speak and write, and you share things in common with them too. You cannot be a maverick when it comes to politics and geopolitics. You have to look at the facts, weed out the gibberish, and surprisingly enough the names listed above, seem to think as I do. If I was relating to the views of the general propaganda establishment, then something would definitely be wrong. I wouldn't be telling the truth for a start and my views are consistent as the patterns are usually quite predictable. It's either an invasion, a coup, or else a provocation. Dozens of countries have been affected since WW2 and so the culprit is usually easily identified. This is a telling case. It's so predictable that you have to assume that they just don't care anymore and I refuse to accept that any intelligent person cannot see it for what it is. It's a massive provocation and the WW3 argument is like the Iraq 45 minutes claim.

These journalists show exactly why the British and American media is so lowly ranked these days. The BBC should be abolished.