UK - Council and European Election

[Dia bando]

Dark Lord Al you are entitled to your opinion but do not mix refugees with immigrants.

Also the real issues are the bankers being subsidised, cuts in public services through dogma and political ideology and millionaires being allowed to avoid taxes.

yes those are issues - but just the same as what Al highlights you knobrot. All real issues

I was out in Leeds late other night and was shocked at the number on the streets in town centre just lined up in shop doorways. Enough

The rest and most of them are doing low paid jobs that most people on benefits do not want to do such as cleaning toilets, working in care homes and doing night shifts.

So you make the people on the dole do those job for fucks sake , you change the system , if an immigrant is on a low income he doesn't even pay tax , and we give his family and him health care and education , for fucks sake do the fucking maths .

Do you see me write aggressively, getting emotional, swearing and calling you names?

Reality is the immigrants work for below the minimum wage which is why people are benefits do not take them as they are better off on benefits. They are here because they can earn a better standard of living here than over there. Yes they use the NHS and some commit crimes but where they can they contribute to our culture, society and the economy, as will their children and subsequent generation.

I agree with you on some point, but driving wages does not help any body bar the employers, and
the employers are taking advantage of this lower wages, friends of mine have lost there jobs to
eastern block workers, they lost there jobs of £7 plus per hour and there jobs went to eastern block
workers on less than minimum wage.
Sorry to say this is happening all over the country, and UKIP have a field day with this information
true, but they never say about the employers exploiting workers immigrant and non immigrant workers
it a disgrace. We are returning to the dark ages, cap in hand, groveling on hands and knees, to the
bosses, we are now devolving it makes me sick.

[Master]

Dark Lord Al you are entitled to your opinion but do not mix refugees with immigrants.

Also the real issues are the bankers being subsidised, cuts in public services through dogma and political ideology and millionaires being allowed to avoid taxes.

yes those are issues - but just the same as what Al highlights you knobrot. All real issues

I was out in Leeds late other night and was shocked at the number on the streets in town centre just lined up in shop doorways. Enough

The rest and most of them are doing low paid jobs that most people on benefits do not want to do such as cleaning toilets, working in care homes and doing night shifts.

So you make the people on the dole do those job for fucks sake , you change the system , if an immigrant is on a low income he doesn't even pay tax , and we give his family and him health care and education , for fucks sake do the fucking maths .

Do you see me write aggressively, getting emotional, swearing and calling you names?

Reality is the immigrants work for below the minimum wage which is why people are benefits do not take them as they are better off on benefits. They are here because they can earn a better standard of living here than over there. Yes they use the NHS and some commit crimes but where they can they contribute to our culture, society and the economy, as will their children and subsequent generation.

I agree with you on some point, but driving wages does not help any body bar the employers, and
the employers are taking advantage of this lower wages, friends of mine have lost there jobs to
eastern block workers, they lost there jobs of £7 plus per hour and there jobs went to eastern block
workers on less than minimum wage.
Sorry to say this is happening all over the country, and UKIP have a field day with this information
true, but they never say about the employers exploiting workers immigrant and non immigrant workers
it a disgrace. We are returning to the dark ages, cap in hand, groveling on hands and knees, to the
bosses, we are now devolving it makes me sick.

What can be worse is that these people have to pay the traffickers which gets them in further debt.

[mattboxingfan]

I have no problem with people moving to England to better there lives. If you are born in a poor country with little opportunities why stay there and suffer? We are lucky to have been born in a wealthy prospering country. Why not share that with others who are less fortunate?

The real problem is people who live in this country and choose not to work and instead live off benefits. They come from both sides. People born in England and people who have immigrated here. I would happily deport them to a desert island.

But we can't stop people who want to come to England to better themselves and improve there family's lives that's just wrong.

[Gandalf]

Well there are jobs for them if they are willing to work for less and undercut the British worker.

I see Greenbeanz makes the distinction between legal and illegal immigration and myself don't see a distinction. There has never been an open debate and referendum on immigration, thus all immigration is illegitimate. Now if a case was made that key jobs need to be filled from overseas then make it, but don't open up the borders on the sly, as was done, and 3 million later, say 'Ooh, I'm surprised you noticed'.

No more Europe and no more open borders and it works both ways. Britain should adopt a policy like most countries do and perhaps encourage parents to be better parents like here where every kid wants to be either a doctor, nurse, businessman, etc. In the UK it's all 'Ooh, I'm going to be a singer and if that fails I will study English drama'. Just idiocy. 'Nursing is not sexy enough' and geology and sociology are? Nursing is useful and far more useful than the latter two options. If we are judging sexiness it is one of the sexier courses on a factual basis. The failure of Britain is institutional and also embedded deep in the rotten core of the family unit where too many families living on the dole, couldn't care less what the kid should be. If the families are working ones then equally, the child has to be a neglected as there is no time for him. He makes up his own mind a football player it is. Just useless. Thus the English grow up deluded, out of touch, then inevitably fail against immigrants who know it's just about doing anything to scrape by. Unfortunately by this stage English kids are in 40000 pounds of debt and and at a greater disadvantage. It's an abusive system.

You therefore have nothing useful to add to this or any other debate and anything you say about any subject should be disregarded as stuff and nonsense. You are saying that as an Immigrant yourself, who though thinking his own degree is worthless still seems to think that he is more deserving of bettering himself than people without a degree. You continually slag of England and the English and yet want to be seen as an Englishman abroad. Call yourself a socialist? IF parents are stupid and the English are useless then why do you pretend to care ? Browny points ?

Take one of your statements and think about how stupid and arrogant it sounds


If the families are working ones then equally, the child has to be a neglected as there is no time for him

Has to be ? why ? only to fit your argument. You seem to want to damn people for not working and staying home to look after their kids and then damn them for working and not being at home 24hrs a day to look after their kids. It is you that has grown up deluded and out of touch.

You have completely weighted the whole debate so that immigration in all its forms in Britain is now framed as lazy spongers coming to live on benefits or unskilled bogeymen coming to undercut British workers. That is both dishonest and cowardly. You have done nothing but seek to appeal to the basest and most crass warping of the truth in order to curry favour with your populist stance. Why do you think the English inevitably fail ? just because you have left don't look at everyone else through such a distorted and narrow lens.

You silly ideas about Governments adopting a policy to make them more like South Korea is just fairly tale jibberish. For years top level consultants have been employed from India and Asia in the NHS because most British kids do not want to devote 7 years to studying medicine and the fact that Asian kids do is a cultural difference. You are suggesting homogenising an entire country to make us all more like Asians ? How the fuck is that going to work you daft twat? Stop going on and on about the failure of Britain. Failure in what? Does South Korea have a better football team? no Does South Korea have better actors and film and television technicians ? no? Does South Korea have a better track record of innovation through small engineering businesses ? no .Does South Korea have a better range of restaurants considered amongst the best in the world ? No Does South Korea have a more thriving arts sector ? no Does South Korea have a more thriving Tourist sector ? No Does South Korea have anything on Britain other than a huge electronic manufacturing sector filled with automaton production line workers like something out of a George Orwell novel? No

So why keep slagging off England ? "No more Europe and no more open borders" is a stance and an opinion you are entitled to if you live or vote in the UK but you don't so who gives a fuck what you think ?

Too many points and too late in the day for me to offer a good post, but I'll give it a stab. Most English people would probably agree that legal, but non referendum based mass immigration is illegitimate. Likewise, illegal immigration is also bad.

In my comments on degrees my own BA was pretty useless at doing anything in the UK. My second one was much more useful and obtained years later with a specific job in mind. Most students go to University based on the former and its more about a social life and than any meaningful job the degree will get them. Many courses exists simply to put bums on seats. I also made in my point that Korea controls who can come in to teach, we must all have degrees. The immigrants in Europe are not based on credentials and so whilst you get some good, you also get a lot of riff raff. Me with a teaching MA and university experience puts me above most. I simply don't count my BA. My other point is that Korean students generally choose useful courses rather than drivel like sociology and anthropology.

In a statement about parenting in modern Britain I see children having a harder time. If they are with a benefits family, they are often ignored and run riot. If they are from a hard working family then they suffer as there is no time for the child. These are generalisations, but I assume they hold true generally.

I will tell you one cultural reason why the English fail. It is because of Daddy government. The Queen is the ultimate example of a welfare Queen. Then we have the banks who all love Daddy government when it goes wrong. Then when society goes tits up and youngsters see no way to advance, getting knocked up and becoming a lazy, welfare queen seems the ticket too. These attitudes of entitlement run from top to bottom and who want to try when you can show your tits in a mag, marry a rich man, or all else failing just get impregnated. It an English disease. Highest rates of teen pregnancy and something that doesn't happen here. Abortions or forced to give the child up and right on too.

My suggestions are simply that Korea is doing many things a lot better than the UK. Less welfare means no teenage Mum's, less immigration means less social unrest, low taxes mean independence, nationalised utiliities means cheap bills, all kinds of things make this a better place to live and England would so love to have some of the positives. Sure, it would be less for the Eton trough boys, but better for society.

The things you talk about such as football teams are irrelevant. I am talking useful things like mobility in society, plenty of decent paying jobs, cheap bills, almost zero council taxes, 12% less VAT (which only attacks the poor thus showing the sickness of Britain, a sound financial system, non alarming government debt which by comparison is rising rapidly there. Mostly Korean jobs for Korean people. I like that too. You go to a fast food restaurant in London and it could be someone from anywhere, I actually like going into a restaurant knowing I am going to practice my Korean with Koreans. It's nice to have a relatively homogenised society. With how few of us there are here, there is little anxiety on the part of the Koreans. Things have been managed correctly.

I respect this country and compared to the train wreck that is the UK and it IS a train wreck, it's night and day. This place gives you independence with your money and works to represent the native population on the whole and I suppose legally that includes me too. Your list of things that you think makes England better are biased and thought personally I don't have views on them because I don't care about tourism etc, but in each of those ways Korea does very well in Asia. It's music, films, acting etc are enjoyed by many countries in the region. Not my cup of tea personally, but Korea has it's disposable pop arts too. I talk more about economic might and capability and that's where I see a broken Britain. High streets of bookies, banks, pay day lenders bakeries and meanwhile Amazon and Starbucks who pay no tax straddling above all.

I love England, but it has massive, massive problems, both socially, economically, morally, and politically. Certainly far more pronounced than here where there are a lot of companies and most of them doing very well.

[Gandalf]

Just a quick extra point. I could be selfish and say I'm never taking about the UK again, but it is in my roots and I have a lot of family and friends out there, so I will comment on these kinds of topics. Sadly, I also think I am far more informed and aware of these topics than any of those people are too and so always want to get my voice out there somehow and that is typically here and in the odd communication with home. I told someone last night on the phone about the NHS currently being asset stripped. Hadn't a clue. The sad truth is that many people in the UK haven't got a clue what is going on in the UK. I guess that is why I post as I do know a few things. Keeping informed is a hobby and if I can use it I will.

[Beanz]

Miles you are absolutely impossible to reason with. If you think anthropology and sociology are meaningless drivel, then what is the point of talking to you ? You would not have linguistics and your idol Chomsky without Anthropology and yet what's good for the Goose is apparently no good for the Gander. I get it you think England. it's students, education and general population are stupid and it is only you who has ever achieved anything despite being born here and then running off to Korea to look down your nose at everybody back home. God you are an insufferable snob.

[Gandalf]

Miles you are absolutely impossible to reason with. If you think anthropology and sociology are meaningless drivel, then what is the point of talking to you ? You would not have linguistics and your idol Chomsky without Anthropology and yet what's good for the Goose is apparently no good for the Gander. I get it you think England. it's students, education and general population are stupid and it is only you who has ever achieved anything despite being born here and then running off to Korea to look down your nose at everybody back home. God you are an insufferable snob.

They are useless if the person is never going to get a job using those skills. I've seen it so often, in courses like these people end up doing things like working in retail or various things not connected to sociology. My friend Marc for instance studied sociology up until MA level and ended up working for the council. Years of being bored later, he is going to study economics. I hope he has a plan, second time out they usually do. I did. Now nursing students on the other hand, always end up getting a job as a nurse.

I am saying that people often choose things simply because they enjoy the subject, but they have no connection to say being a politician. I studied Politics, but unless you are in the old Eton gang you won't have a chance, and furthermore, if you are that bit radical, you will be weeded out regardless. I liked politics and history, but it was useless. Most realise it too late after being told in sixth form 'You must go to University to do well!. Then a decade later and average debts of 10's of thousands of pounds.......the system is not only increasingly useless, but it is abusive and rotten.

[Gandalf]

I think they are useful course for knowledge, but in terms of jobs in modern Britain, you will struggle. I guess that's what I was getting at.

[Gandalf]

Miles you are absolutely impossible to reason with. If you think anthropology and sociology are meaningless drivel, then what is the point of talking to you ? You would not have linguistics and your idol Chomsky without Anthropology and yet what's good for the Goose is apparently no good for the Gander. I get it you think England. it's students, education and general population are stupid and it is only you who has ever achieved anything despite being born here and then running off to Korea to look down your nose at everybody back home. God you are an insufferable snob.

I responded to the first part only. I don't look down on the smart English people and there are many of them, but I do look down on the economic and social dehumanisation taking place. Culturally there is something wrong with the UK in that children of poor families would rather become single parents than try and better themselves. Yet if you are smart and try to better yourself you find a mountain of debt. If you are irresponsible and breed as a kid, you get handouts. From top to bottom there are massive abuses of the system and it's intolerable. I don't think I have achieved very much in life beyond a modicum of self sufficiency, but surely self sufficiency should be the ultimate objective of any decent system. I don't discriminate, banks should be self sufficient only, as should randy kids, as should rancid old Monarchies.

I don't claim to have done anything in life except to finally study in an area that fits, and to live a very cautious life. My sister in law came over last week and loved our TV, but looked in horror at the old sofa full of holes. People can drive old cars, sit on old sofas, avoid going out to a silly bar and spending the night drinking overpriced crappy drinks. On the whole they don't though. They think Daddy government is always going to be there. But big Daddy government is broker than all of them. All I say is that there are serious cultural problems in the UK and they refuse to look the problems in the eye. All I do is make some comparisons and say hey, it doesn't suck here, you know yourself your system has gone wrong.

Stop trying to make it into me hating your system, which is a country I will always be connected to, when I see it as other systems having ways to improve our country. Nationalisation, stop supporting teenage mums with free housing, banking reform, protect domestic workers and give them hope in their own country and then ask for immigrants. Reform the University system so students aren't overdoing courses with limited job opportunities. I am offering suggestions to improve a broken country. I don't want it broke.

[Kirkland Laing]

I don't vote but if I did vote I would have voted UKIP. I'm hoping the EU doesn't reform significantly especially as far as the free movement of labour goes and we could see UKIP become a serious political force and hold the balance of power within a couple of elections.

I really like what the Front National are standing for in France. A decent welfare stste to protect citizens from the ravages of globalisation, protection of domestic industry from the ravages of globalisation, government running the banking system, an end to corporate/big business control of the economy and the G4Sisation of government services and of course boot all the recent immigrants out. This is the recipe that advanced economies need to adopt along with some kind of immigration points qualification system like Australia has so that we can let in regulated non-domestic-labour-rates-cutting numbers of honest hard-working skilled people and keep all the scum out.

All that with your little free Palestine Giff featuring the Pope. Statements like

"and of course boot all the recent immigrants out"

and

"keep all the scum out"

reveals your hand and loses you many a future poker game.

"ALL the recent immigrants" ?

Does that mean skilled and unskilled ? All the chefs? All the restaurant owners? All the teachers? All the consultants, doctors and care staff? all the scientists? all the interpreters? all the people who have stared small businesses employing English ? All the students? all the actors? all the bar staff?

Define recent

this year
last year
last decade
since the 70's
since the 50's
since the 1900's ?

Just the Europeans ? what about the Indians ? or the Pakistanis ? or the Afro-Caribbeans? or the Somalis or how about the Jews? the Australians ? The Americans? The Canadians?

All the ones not working and a big chunk of the unskilled ones. Offer unemployed Brits the unskilled jobs on a minimum wage and if they don't take it stop all their benefits and boot the fuckers out of their government-paid housing.

Actually ha ve a regulated system that doesn't flood the market with vast amounts of unskilled labour. The current system allows employers to pay Brits at the low end of the earnings scale about 15-20% less than they would with controlled immigration. The government also allows employers to pay less than minimum wage with almost no penalty. This should end and employers should be fined up the yin yang if they're caught paying --especially immigrants -- less than minimum wage.


Basically run the country in favour of the vast majority of the people who live in it and not in favour of a tiny minority who profit from the current situation, and I speak as one of the tiny minority. The system is far too unbalanced right now.

I've been making the same points over and over again since 2007 since I joined this site, I'm sure you know my routine backwards by now. I've actually had the same views -- inequality of income causing massive economic problems, no regulation fucking the financial system up and so on -- since just before the end of last century. As somebody burdened with the fact of being always right about everything all the time it's extremely annoying watching the world continue to fuck things up when it could be run much better and it's also very gratifying when the people who run the world eventually realise that I was right and contemplate their own supreme arrogance at thinking they knew better than Kirkland Laing, The Infallible One:


Business Live: Lagarde and Carney call for more integrity in capitalism | Business | theguardian.com


Bank of England governor: capitalism doomed if ethics vanish | Business | The Guardian

[Kirkland Laing]

Dark Lord Al you are entitled to your opinion but do not mix refugees with immigrants.

Also the real issues are the bankers being subsidised, cuts in public services through dogma and political ideology and millionaires being allowed to avoid taxes.

yes those are issues - but just the same as what Al highlights you knobrot. All real issues

I was out in Leeds late other night and was shocked at the number on the streets in town centre just lined up in shop doorways. Enough

The rest and most of them are doing low paid jobs that most people on benefits do not want to do such as cleaning toilets, working in care homes and doing night shifts.

So you make the people on the dole do those job for fucks sake , you change the system , if an immigrant is on a low income he doesn't even pay tax , and we give his family and him health care and education , for fucks sake do the fucking maths .

Do you see me write aggressively, getting emotional, swearing and calling you names?

Reality is the immigrants work for below the minimum wage which is why people are benefits do not take them as they are better off on benefits. They are here because they can earn a better standard of living here than over there. Yes they use the NHS and some commit crimes but where they can they contribute to our culture, society and the economy, as will their children and subsequent generation.

The thing is the "contribute to society" bit is normally a contribution to big and small business profits. It's great for business and the country's GDP but not so great for the people already living in the country as they face increased competition for work, housing, access to school places, healthcare and other social services.

"Contribute to society" is just a mantra repeated by politicians who are just a bunch of corporate servants, saying what they're told to say by the people who fund their parties.

[El Kabong]

Beanz, I'm surprised anyone bothers attempting to debate miles anymore....why waste your time? Like many lefties he has no thoughts of his own, he only parrots what guys like Chomsky spout.


Chomsky is a LINGUIST....why anyone gives credence to what a linguist thinks about anything other than words is beyond me. He holds himself (and his held by others) in a much higher than he deserves.

[Master]

Dark Lord Al you are entitled to your opinion but do not mix refugees with immigrants.

Also the real issues are the bankers being subsidised, cuts in public services through dogma and political ideology and millionaires being allowed to avoid taxes.

yes those are issues - but just the same as what Al highlights you knobrot. All real issues

I was out in Leeds late other night and was shocked at the number on the streets in town centre just lined up in shop doorways. Enough

The rest and most of them are doing low paid jobs that most people on benefits do not want to do such as cleaning toilets, working in care homes and doing night shifts.

So you make the people on the dole do those job for fucks sake , you change the system , if an immigrant is on a low income he doesn't even pay tax , and we give his family and him health care and education , for fucks sake do the fucking maths .

Do you see me write aggressively, getting emotional, swearing and calling you names?

Reality is the immigrants work for below the minimum wage which is why people are benefits do not take them as they are better off on benefits. They are here because they can earn a better standard of living here than over there. Yes they use the NHS and some commit crimes but where they can they contribute to our culture, society and the economy, as will their children and subsequent generation.

The thing is the "contribute to society" bit is normally a contribution to big and small business profits. It's great for business and the country's GDP but not so great for the people already living in the country as they face increased competition for work, housing, access to school places, healthcare and other social services.

"Contribute to society" is just a mantra repeated by politicians who are just a bunch of corporate servants, saying what they're told to say by the people who fund their parties.

It is also a real concept, they pay taxes, play a role in the community as do we all. Why should it not be different for them and their children?

[Beanz]

Beanz, I'm surprised anyone bothers attempting to debate miles anymore....why waste your time? Like many lefties he has no thoughts of his own, he only parrots what guys like Chomsky spout.


Chomsky is a LINGUIST....why anyone gives credence to what a linguist thinks about anything other than words is beyond me. He holds himself (and his held by others) in a much higher than he deserves.

The thing is Miles is not a leftie. Miles is just words with a big stash of gold bars and a seething disrespect for everybody in England, in fact anybody who is not him. I just voted for the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition in the local Elections and the Green Party for the European Parliament so I lean about as far left as you can before falling over and yet I can find little in common with Miles and his England for the English tirade and the preposterous position of him being an Immigrant himself and yet being completely devoid of empathy or common sense. I voted left and I find myself doing so because my country is falling so far over to the right that a handful of pointy headed members of the old boys club have ended up running the show and have robbed the coffers from those below.

This whole debate has been massively skewed and weighted form the start. With Miles and Kirkland keen to class all immigrants as the problem and ignore ANY positive contributions that have been made in the hundreds of years of settlers making this country what it is.

[Beanz]

Kirkland you are full of yourself and even fuller of shit. My personal experience of Immigrants form Eastern Europe on a one to one level is my friend from Lithuania who came here about 5 years ago and now has built his one man business up to the point that he now employs three English people, two of whom he trained up from promising unemployed artists into fully qualified and highly skilled tattoo artists.

You will dismiss that as not representative of most Eastern European immigrants but the point is you and Miles are suggesting that all Immigration is about taking benefits and jobs not creating them and paying taxes. You are clearly just presenting one side of a much more complex argument.