are we forgetting what the point of boxing is?

[powerpuncher]

I can appreciate knockouts and I can appreciate technical skill. Boxing as a sport and there for based on competition. The problem I have with some of the aforementioned "skill fighters" is not that they aren't big punchers or or sluggers or loudmouths or personalities. Its that part of their styles/ tactics are hard to define under the term fair competition..

It used to be that if you didn't to be there for a punch, you slipped it, parried it, blocked it then countered it. Someone was drubbing you with hard punches, and you started throwing heavier, or doubled your punch output, or countered and made sure your punches counted. If they ran from you, you worked the body and occasionally slipped a few south and slowed his mobility. The point was, you stepped up your level of battle/ effort. You competed...

Turning tail and running or throwing a punch then smothering them and tying up their arms is not competing. Neither is controlling locations of the fight, weight of your opponents or looking for any other of these advantages. Noone says you have to be slugger with no finesse. Take someone like Marquez for example. Even after being knocked down he doesn't get up and slow dance you, armbar you, run around you. He figures you out and picks you apart or does what he was already doing but better. You can stifle your opponents offense with angles, distance, head movement and jabbing to keep them off balance...instead of excessively clinching or running in a non combative posture. Keep the action going ...

boxing has had holding since its beginning. jim jeffries used to wrestle to prepare for his matches. holding and using "dirty" tactics isnt a new part of the sport. it is how it has always been and how it will always be. this thread isnt about casual fans but about true fans of the sport. casual fans will love the blood and guts warriors while the actual fans can easily love the punchers and the boxers.

why not hate on the fighters who let their opponent hold them? for example, ruiz held all of the time which made his fights boring. but you know what? when jones fought him, he didnt let him hold and just beat him. most fighters allow their opponent to grab them. their are ways to prevent it. holding is a tactic whether you like it or not. as long as the ref doesnt think its excessive (and as we see, it takes a lot of holding to be excessive), it will always be used.

[ross]

I can appreciate knockouts and I can appreciate technical skill. Boxing as a sport and there for based on competition. The problem I have with some of the aforementioned "skill fighters" is not that they aren't big punchers or or sluggers or loudmouths or personalities. Its that part of their styles/ tactics are hard to define under the term fair competition..

It used to be that if you didn't to be there for a punch, you slipped it, parried it, blocked it then countered it. Someone was drubbing you with hard punches, and you started throwing heavier, or doubled your punch output, or countered and made sure your punches counted. If they ran from you, you worked the body and occasionally slipped a few south and slowed his mobility. The point was, you stepped up your level of battle/ effort. You competed...

Turning tail and running or throwing a punch then smothering them and tying up their arms is not competing. Neither is controlling locations of the fight, weight of your opponents or looking for any other of these advantages. Noone says you have to be slugger with no finesse. Take someone like Marquez for example. Even after being knocked down he doesn't get up and slow dance you, armbar you, run around you. He figures you out and picks you apart or does what he was already doing but better. You can stifle your opponents offense with angles, distance, head movement and jabbing to keep them off balance...instead of excessively clinching or running in a non combative posture. Keep the action going ...

boxing has had holding since its beginning. jim jeffries used to wrestle to prepare for his matches. holding and using "dirty" tactics isnt a new part of the sport. it is how it has always been and how it will always be. this thread isnt about casual fans but about true fans of the sport. casual fans will love the blood and guts warriors while the actual fans can easily love the punchers and the boxers.

why not hate on the fighters who let their opponent hold them? for example, ruiz held all of the time which made his fights boring. but you know what? when jones fought him, he didnt let him hold and just beat him. most fighters allow their opponent to grab them. their are ways to prevent it. holding is a tactic whether you like it or not. as long as the ref doesnt think its excessive (and as we see, it takes a lot of holding to be excessive), it will always be used.

Actually if you watch the fight Ruiz tried actually fighting for once to try and prove he didnt need to hold and when he did get close the ref was on it straight away breaking them up. Shame the refs dont do the same with Ward.

[J_Undisputed]

I can appreciate knockouts and I can appreciate technical skill. Boxing as a sport and there for based on competition. The problem I have with some of the aforementioned "skill fighters" is not that they aren't big punchers or or sluggers or loudmouths or personalities. Its that part of their styles/ tactics are hard to define under the term fair competition..

It used to be that if you didn't to be there for a punch, you slipped it, parried it, blocked it then countered it. Someone was drubbing you with hard punches, and you started throwing heavier, or doubled your punch output, or countered and made sure your punches counted. If they ran from you, you worked the body and occasionally slipped a few south and slowed his mobility. The point was, you stepped up your level of battle/ effort. You competed...

Turning tail and running or throwing a punch then smothering them and tying up their arms is not competing. Neither is controlling locations of the fight, weight of your opponents or looking for any other of these advantages. Noone says you have to be slugger with no finesse. Take someone like Marquez for example. Even after being knocked down he doesn't get up and slow dance you, armbar you, run around you. He figures you out and picks you apart or does what he was already doing but better. You can stifle your opponents offense with angles, distance, head movement and jabbing to keep them off balance...instead of excessively clinching or running in a non combative posture. Keep the action going ...

boxing has had holding since its beginning. jim jeffries used to wrestle to prepare for his matches. holding and using "dirty" tactics isnt a new part of the sport. it is how it has always been and how it will always be. this thread isnt about casual fans but about true fans of the sport. casual fans will love the blood and guts warriors while the actual fans can easily love the punchers and the boxers.

why not hate on the fighters who let their opponent hold them? for example, ruiz held all of the time which made his fights boring. but you know what? when jones fought him, he didnt let him hold and just beat him. most fighters allow their opponent to grab them. their are ways to prevent it. holding is a tactic whether you like it or not. as long as the ref doesnt think its excessive (and as we see, it takes a lot of holding to be excessive), it will always be used.

Actually if you watch the fight Ruiz tried actually fighting for once to try and prove he didnt need to hold and when he did get close the ref was on it straight away breaking them up. Shame the refs dont do the same with Ward.

Right! He had the power advantage and figured a light heavyweight couldn't take his power. If anything Jones would have benefited more from clinching ruiz to tie up his arms and stall out his offense, using ward's style/tactics.

[powerpuncher]

I can appreciate knockouts and I can appreciate technical skill. Boxing as a sport and there for based on competition. The problem I have with some of the aforementioned "skill fighters" is not that they aren't big punchers or or sluggers or loudmouths or personalities. Its that part of their styles/ tactics are hard to define under the term fair competition..

It used to be that if you didn't to be there for a punch, you slipped it, parried it, blocked it then countered it. Someone was drubbing you with hard punches, and you started throwing heavier, or doubled your punch output, or countered and made sure your punches counted. If they ran from you, you worked the body and occasionally slipped a few south and slowed his mobility. The point was, you stepped up your level of battle/ effort. You competed...

Turning tail and running or throwing a punch then smothering them and tying up their arms is not competing. Neither is controlling locations of the fight, weight of your opponents or looking for any other of these advantages. Noone says you have to be slugger with no finesse. Take someone like Marquez for example. Even after being knocked down he doesn't get up and slow dance you, armbar you, run around you. He figures you out and picks you apart or does what he was already doing but better. You can stifle your opponents offense with angles, distance, head movement and jabbing to keep them off balance...instead of excessively clinching or running in a non combative posture. Keep the action going ...

boxing has had holding since its beginning. jim jeffries used to wrestle to prepare for his matches. holding and using "dirty" tactics isnt a new part of the sport. it is how it has always been and how it will always be. this thread isnt about casual fans but about true fans of the sport. casual fans will love the blood and guts warriors while the actual fans can easily love the punchers and the boxers.

why not hate on the fighters who let their opponent hold them? for example, ruiz held all of the time which made his fights boring. but you know what? when jones fought him, he didnt let him hold and just beat him. most fighters allow their opponent to grab them. their are ways to prevent it. holding is a tactic whether you like it or not. as long as the ref doesnt think its excessive (and as we see, it takes a lot of holding to be excessive), it will always be used.

Actually if you watch the fight Ruiz tried actually fighting for once to try and prove he didnt need to hold and when he did get close the ref was on it straight away breaking them up. Shame the refs dont do the same with Ward.

Right! He had the power advantage and figured a light heavyweight couldn't take his power. If anything Jones would have benefited more from clinching ruiz to tie up his arms and stall out his offense, using ward's style/tactics.

then he made the same mistake with toney? he couldnt hold him. it had nothing to do with him not wanting to. jones wouldnt let him hold because he stayed on the outside.