In a fair fight with an honest referee Golovkin would KO Andre Ward

[IamInuit]

People are really exaggerating how dirty Ward is and I do it also because I dont like him or his attitude. When really its the appearance of impropriety for the most part. Home field advantage? Well lots of fighters have had that over their careers and many of them all time greats. I often comment on Jack Reiss seeming to be his homer ref but in fairness he's on the rotation with all the other refs that are local and on the CSAC list. Yes he got away with shit in the Kessler fight but I dont recall all of this holding and hitting or punching off the break. Besides, I'd much rather see fighters punch and get out w/o the refs becoming camera whores every time the fighters are in tight. Please refer to the last ten prime time fights reffed by Cortez for examples of that phenomena.

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

Boring fighter? Each to their own. I like watching him fight and what he does and the mans a technical wizard. I'm pissed off at the guy and think him a tool for selfish reasons. Guys this good dont come around much and when they sit out for the reasons he is, it really picks my ass. Talent wise, its a little like living through the 40's and 50's and having Robinson sit out. Its his choice to compost over his prime years but he's the one that said following the games that he wanted to be remembered as the GOAT when he's finished boxing.

Its all well and good that the Kazak can cut off the ring and that has worked for him but with Ward its once you get to him that the building starts to collapse. So far Ward has turned people inside-out in the pocket and I dont think 3G can box with Ward either. I see Ward winning a ud.

[Freedom]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

[powerpuncher]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

[erics44]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

There is a rule against clinching

In fact clinching is very much against the rules

Unless of course you're gonna nit pick as it's not actually ever referred to as "clinching" in the rules as far as I know

P.s. I'm not in any way suggesting that ward holds with this post I'm just clarifying the rules

[erics44]

And I've just watched the video and some of the fight again and it looks like a strategy that very much includes holding

Laughable really that people are so down on ward and in that vid some one has counted 20 holds in 2 or 3 rounds, wlad hits 20 mid way through the first

[powerpuncher]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

There is a rule against clinching

In fact clinching is very much against the rules

Unless of course you're gonna nit pick as it's not actually ever referred to as "clinching" in the rules as far as I know

P.s. I'm not in any way suggesting that ward holds with this post I'm just clarifying the rules

If you can find the rule that's fine. I just can't see how clinching is against the rules since its unintentional a lot of the time. Maybe intentional clinching is against the rule but as you said, it's an unwritten rule that it's allowed to happen. So even if it were against the rules technically, I would say that most fighters would be DQ'd because they clinch multiple times during a fight

[erics44]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

There is a rule against clinching

In fact clinching is very much against the rules

Unless of course you're gonna nit pick as it's not actually ever referred to as "clinching" in the rules as far as I know

P.s. I'm not in any way suggesting that ward holds with this post I'm just clarifying the rules

If you can find the rule that's fine. I just can't see how clinching is against the rules since its unintentional a lot of the time. Maybe intentional clinching is against the rule but as you said, it's an unwritten rule that it's allowed to happen. So even if it were against the rules technically, I would say that most fighters would be DQ'd because they clinch multiple times during a fight

Well you have to accept that boxers are going to come together in a fight, and you have to accept there's going to be a reasonable amount of clinching

IMO in the Kessler fight ward should have been warned for clinching amongst other things

His strategy clearly involves a certain amount of holding, he should be stopped from doing this I think

It's against the rules and it makes the fight dull to watch and boxing is entertainment after all

IMO wlad kilt should be dq'd in most of his fights, he generates a lot of money tho and makes a lot of people rich so it's hard to see it ever happening

[IamInuit]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

Al Bernstein can be a tad dramatic and tends to follow whatever the accepted talk is at ringside.
Here is the fight. Show me all the intentional head butts? The clinch vid you posted is slanted. Put it in context and watch the entire fight.

I already said he got away with some shit but Wards fouling prowess is starting to make its way into urban legend status. I dont like the twat either but people are piling it on a little thick. You concluded in your opening post that he would need to cheat in multiple ways to win and that's ridiculous given the mans skill level.


In addition you cant just pick and chose what holding is or excessive holding based on whether you like the person or not and if I'm a Wlad fan I'm not even bringing up the topic.

And eric clinching has been a part of boxing since its grappling days and countless people both famous and not have used it as a tactical offense and defense.

[ninjaspy3]

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

Al Bernstein can be a tad dramatic and tends to follow whatever the accepted talk is at ringside.
Here is the fight. Show me all the intentional head butts? The clinch vid you posted is slanted. Put it in context and watch the entire fight.

I already said he got away with some shit but Wards fouling prowess is starting to make its way into urban legend status. I dont like the twat either but people are piling it on a little thick. You concluded in your opening post that he would need to cheat in multiple ways to win and that's ridiculous given the mans skill level.


In addition you cant just pick and chose what holding is or excessive holding based on whether you like the person or not and if I'm a Wlad fan I'm not even bringing up the topic.

And eric clinching has been a part of boxing since its grappling days and countless people both famous and not have used it as a tactical offense and defense.

I actually rewatched the fight here and there were only a few times when I was bugged by the clinching, but all in all, it wasn't nearly as bad as that clinching compilation video made it out to be. Actually I find it a worse habit that Ward likes to stick the left hand out there often to use as a range finder rather than throwing a jab. An opponent might be able to use that against him if he doesn't learn how to suppress the urge to do that. But, yeah, not a bad fight.

[J_Undisputed]

There actually was a rule against under the original MoQ rules but that was left out when the rules for pro boxing were adapted from them. With respect to fighters clinching and using it as a way to smother offense, its a smart tactic to outsmart your opponents who may be blessed with more offensive ability. At the same time, it defeats the whole purpose of people tuning into watch a fight. I would have less issues if you clinched and spun a person and released and then attacked. Conversely I wouldn't have an objection to a Muay Thai like tactics of throwing a person down if they excessively held you.

As for ward on the Headbutts, i don't think any fighter openly admits to using their head but you can tell a fighter that follows through with their head offensively. Unfortunately, the risk is not the same for both fighters. In a fight where brow on brow forehead on forehead or cheekbone on cheekbone contact is made, the risk is the same and Its fairly safe to say that its an accident. For fighters like ward, bradley and holyfield who have been accused of cutting fighters on occasion, there needs to be a distinction made by the referee than lowering your head (Using the top, side, or upper forehead are the striking surface) into an opponent (brows, cheekbone, bride of nose or other areas where the skin is thinner and stretched raised features of the face) will not be tolerated. Either start docking them early if they initiated a butt or simply remove the possibility for them to win on the cards if the fights stopped early due to a cut. It opens the door for their opponents to pull the old "i cant see" routine and get a no contest in a fight they were losing but would keep the accidentally on purpose follow through with their melons...