If Floyd never fights Manny...

[Rantcatrat]

@ruthless rocco - with all due respect, you're being a little harsh, my friend. I frankly disagree with you. Duran started his career at 130 and fought legitimately up to 168. Duran never claimed to be the best ever either. Floyd's line of clothing is TBE. Enough said. For boxing fans to want him to move up to 160 to fight the most-feared fighter at 160 is not too much to ask at all, especially when he claims he is the best ever and fans have to pay $75 to watch him fight. It actually is an entirely reasonable request.

Second, it's not as far as off as you make it out to be. GGG weighed in at 165 on his thirty day weigh in for his next fight. He has offered to come down to 154 or a catch weight between 154 and 160 for a fight with Floyd. Floyd is the current champion in the junior middleweight division, only one division below.

Ortiz weighed in the night of at 164 for his fight against Floyd. Canelo weighed in the night of at 165. They rumble at 157 or 160 and you would probably see a five pound difference in the night of weight of GGG compared with Ortiz or Canelo.

I think the difference is that Duran ate his way up to those higher weights and fought there out of necessity when he got older.

In reality, Floyd is a small WW. And because I know people will disagree with that and quote heights and weights to me, let me explain: for most people this is obvious, but for those who might not know weight cutting has come a long way, and a guy who weighs 147 at the weigh in does not walk around at 147 and doesn't not fight at 147. A guy who fights at 147 will usually weigh 157 or more on fight day.

For reference, when Mayweather fought Sharmba Mitchell, Floyd was 147 at the weigh in and 148 on fight day. In contrast, Mitchell was 145 at the weigh in and 155 on fight night. Against Baldomir, Floyd was 146 weigh in, 149 fight night. Baldomir was 147 weigh in, 162 fight night. In the first Maidana fight, Mayweather was 146 weigh in and 148 on fight night. Maidana was 146 1/2 at weigh in and 165 on fight night. That's a nearly 20lb differential. Floyd's fight time weight of 146-151 is more comparable to the fight time weight of a junior WW or even a large LW.

So if Floyd is being outweighed by so much at WW, why do we expect him to go to 160 and fight an absolute killer, at 38 years old no less. A guy who's never entered a ring weighing more than 151lbs doesn't belong in a weigh class with guys who weigh in at 160 and come to the ring at 170 plus.

That aside, I don't even see why people feel the need for him to move up. It's not like he's cleared the division... the WW division is probably the hottest in boxing right now. There are a lot of young guys I'd love to see him fight. In fact, I'll go on record and say that I think Shawn Porter would beat the shit out of Floyd.

Why wouldn't we feel the need for him to move up? He's best lineal champion at 147 and 154. As a fan of boxing, wouldn't you want to see if he can become the lineal champion at 160 too? Why the heck not? Can any boxing fan say with a straight face that they wouldn't want to see Floyd face GGG or didn't want to see him face Sergio Martinez?

By the way, no one needs to move up. I don't think GGG needs to move up to 168 to face Froch or Ward. He makes 160 comfortably. But, as a boxing fan, don't we want him to, especially if he clears out the middleweight division first? In fact, once he clears out the division, wouldn't it more fun as a boxing fan if he moved up to challenge himself?

Also, Floyd doesn't need to fight anyone. He's at the top of the sport and the networks and athletic commissions let him do what they want because he brings in so much money. I 100% understand from a business perspective why he wouldn't take challenges. Why would Floyd face GGG when he can he face Maidana? GGG is a much harder fight and the money now might not be that different. But show me a boxing fan that wouldn't prefer to see him face GGG.

[Beanflicker]

Why wouldn't we feel the need for him to move up? He's best lineal champion at 147 and 154. As a fan of boxing, wouldn't you want to see if he can become the lineal champion at 160 too? Why the heck not? Can any boxing fan say with a straight face that they wouldn't want to see Floyd face GGG or didn't want to see him face Sergio Martinez?

By the way, no one needs to move up. I don't think GGG needs to move up to 168 to face Froch or Ward. He makes 160 comfortably. But, as a boxing fan, don't we want him to, especially if he clears out the middleweight division first? In fact, once he clears out the division, wouldn't it more fun as a boxing fan if he moved up to challenge himself?

Also, Floyd doesn't need to fight anyone. He's at the top of the sport and the networks and athletic commissions let him do what they want because he brings in so much money. I 100% understand from a business perspective why he wouldn't take challenges. Why would Floyd face GGG when he can he face Maidana? GGG is a much harder fight and the money now might not be that different. But show me a boxing fan that wouldn't prefer to see him face GGG.

I'd love to see Floyd fight GGG. I'd love to see Floyd fight Wlad. I'd love to see Floyd try to jump over the Grand Canyon on a BMX.

I just don't think he should be expected to do any of those things. You talk about it like he needs the GGG fight for his legacy, or he owes it to the fans. He really doesn't.

[Rantcatrat]

Why wouldn't we feel the need for him to move up? He's best lineal champion at 147 and 154. As a fan of boxing, wouldn't you want to see if he can become the lineal champion at 160 too? Why the heck not? Can any boxing fan say with a straight face that they wouldn't want to see Floyd face GGG or didn't want to see him face Sergio Martinez?

By the way, no one needs to move up. I don't think GGG needs to move up to 168 to face Froch or Ward. He makes 160 comfortably. But, as a boxing fan, don't we want him to, especially if he clears out the middleweight division first? In fact, once he clears out the division, wouldn't it more fun as a boxing fan if he moved up to challenge himself?

Also, Floyd doesn't need to fight anyone. He's at the top of the sport and the networks and athletic commissions let him do what they want because he brings in so much money. I 100% understand from a business perspective why he wouldn't take challenges. Why would Floyd face GGG when he can he face Maidana? GGG is a much harder fight and the money now might not be that different. But show me a boxing fan that wouldn't prefer to see him face GGG.

I'd love to see Floyd fight GGG. I'd love to see Floyd fight Wlad. I'd love to see Floyd try to jump over the Grand Canyon on a BMX.

I just don't think he should be expected to do any of those things. You talk about it like he needs the GGG fight for his legacy, or he owes it to the fans. He really doesn't.

Did you even read my post? I explicitly said at least twice that Floyd didn't need to do anything. He's already made millions of dollars and been on top of the hill for a while. I said as a boxing fan, I'd like to see Floyd fight GGG because it appears on paper to be a challenging, competitive fight and it would present Floyd with the chance to be the lineal middleweight champion, something he hasn't accomplished yet.

To your point about legacy, adding a lineal middleweight belt to his legacy clearly would improve his legacy. Conversely, losing to the middleweight champion clearly would not lessen it.

I disagree with you though--I wouldn't like to see Floyd face Wlad. That's a farcical fight that in no way shape or form could be competitive. On the other hand, I view Floyd-Sergio Martinez (of two years ago), Floyd-GGG now as competitive fights, where, frankly, I bet many might pick Floyd.

Who would you pick in a fight between Floyd and GGG?

[ruthless rocco]

How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

@ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod

[Rantcatrat]

How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

@ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod

What does it prove? It's an entirely different point and off topic.

Why do you consider me a naysayer? Have I ever said Floyd Mayweather isn't a great? Did I ever say he wasn't a great boxer? Whether Floyd makes more money than anyone in boxing's history though isn't important to me. The only difference between you and I is that I could care less about his business decisions whereas you drool over his money and admire his brand. I want to see good fights. I want to see challenging fights. Fights that are close on paper. I'm a boxing fan.

[imp]

How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

@ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod

What does it prove? It's an entirely different point and off topic.

Why do you consider me a naysayer? Have I ever said Floyd Mayweather isn't a great? Did I ever say he wasn't a great boxer? Whether Floyd makes more money than anyone in boxing's history though isn't important to me. The only difference between you and I is that I could care less about his business decisions whereas you drool over his money and admire his brand. I want to see good fights. I want to see challenging fights. Fights that are close on paper. I'm a boxing fan.

We are all boxing fans.

What fight do you want? (Lets not talk about pac)

No one will ever be happy with his choice as they dont see past the character he plays..

[Master]

Muhammid Ali has accomplished more by being a global icon and transcending the sport, whereas a Jamaican lady does not know who Floyd is.

[imp]

Why cant ggg step up and face ward.?

Always an excuse.

[ruthless rocco]

How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

@ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod

What does it prove? It's an entirely different point and off topic.

Why do you consider me a naysayer? Have I ever said Floyd Mayweather isn't a great? Did I ever say he wasn't a great boxer? Whether Floyd makes more money than anyone in boxing's history though isn't important to me. The only difference between you and I is that I could care less about his business decisions whereas you drool over his money and admire his brand. I want to see good fights. I want to see challenging fights. Fights that are close on paper. I'm a boxing fan.

No! This is the very point of my argument. I've been saying it from the start you've just been ignoring it. You're a small closed minded boxing fan that wants to see the best lose. You have no appreciation for all that Floyd has accomplished within the sport of boxing.

Floyd is The Best Ever because he has elevated himself to the highest level in the sport of boxing.

Answer my one little question. Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

[Master]

How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

@ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod

What does it prove? It's an entirely different point and off topic.

Why do you consider me a naysayer? Have I ever said Floyd Mayweather isn't a great? Did I ever say he wasn't a great boxer? Whether Floyd makes more money than anyone in boxing's history though isn't important to me. The only difference between you and I is that I could care less about his business decisions whereas you drool over his money and admire his brand. I want to see good fights. I want to see challenging fights. Fights that are close on paper. I'm a boxing fan.

No! This is the very point of my argument. I've been saying it from the start you've just been ignoring it. You're a small closed minded boxing fan that wants to see the best lose. You have no appreciation for all that Floyd has accomplished within the sport of boxing.

Floyd is The Best Ever because he has elevated himself to the highest level in the sport of boxing.

Answer my one little question. Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

Muhammid Ali

[mikeeod]

How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

@ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod

What does it prove? It's an entirely different point and off topic.

Why do you consider me a naysayer? Have I ever said Floyd Mayweather isn't a great? Did I ever say he wasn't a great boxer? Whether Floyd makes more money than anyone in boxing's history though isn't important to me. The only difference between you and I is that I could care less about his business decisions whereas you drool over his money and admire his brand. I want to see good fights. I want to see challenging fights. Fights that are close on paper. I'm a boxing fan.

No! This is the very point of my argument. I've been saying it from the start you've just been ignoring it. You're a small closed minded boxing fan that wants to see the best lose. You have no appreciation for all that Floyd has accomplished within the sport of boxing.

Floyd is The Best Ever because he has elevated himself to the highest level in the sport of boxing.

Answer my one little question. Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

I hate to even respond to you Rocco, because I'm convinced that you are a troll and a jack ass. Where your thinking is flawed, is we don't want to see Floyd lose, we want to see him WIN. When I watch Floyd fight GGG, it isn't to see Floyd get his head knocked off, it's to watch him put on a masterpiece and confirm that he is as great as I think he is. Floyd vs Ward, or Wlad, or Hop are unrealistic and unfair. Floyd fighting GGG at 154? That's about as fair of a fight as you can get, and even if Floyd loses,naw long as he put on a good performance, he won't lose stature in anyone's eyes.

Who has accomplished more?!? Henry Armstrong held 3 world championships simultaneously when there were only 8 weight classes and one champ per weight. Sugar Ray Robinson beat numerous prime ATG and HOF fighters, and won in spectacular fashion. Muhammad Ali transcended the sport and beat the greatest set of challengers the heavyweight division has ever produced. I can go on but you get the picture.

Here is what you guys do: you go to the extreme when other knowledgable fans state Floyd's greatness, but font go overboard and buy the bs that he is the greatest. For Floyd not to make the Manny fight is unforgivable. That act alone keeps him out of my top 20 ATG. Oscar fought Sweet Pea, Prime Mosely, Prime Hop, Prime Tito, Prime Quartey, undefeated Miguel Gonzalez, 1 loss Vargas...etc. Mosely fought prime Oscar, Prime Floyd, a Prime Forrest, Prime Winky, Prime Cotto...etc. Hop fought Prime a Roy,Prime Tito, Prime Pavilik, Prime Tarver, Prime Winky, Prime Joe C., Prime Dawson, Prime Pascal, Prime Kovalev. All of those guys fought their biggest threats (identified by fans n media) even though those other guys had rival promoters and networks. They made those fights and sought out the biggest challenges to prove their greatness. It's what great fighters do. Floyd did that prior to JLC and I haven't seen him do it since...

[Beanflicker]

Did you even read my post? I explicitly said at least twice that Floyd didn't need to do anything. He's already made millions of dollars and been on top of the hill for a while. I said as a boxing fan, I'd like to see Floyd fight GGG because it appears on paper to be a challenging, competitive fight and it would present Floyd with the chance to be the lineal middleweight champion, something he hasn't accomplished yet.

To your point about legacy, adding a lineal middleweight belt to his legacy clearly would improve his legacy. Conversely, losing to the middleweight champion clearly would not lessen it.

I disagree with you though--I wouldn't like to see Floyd face Wlad. That's a farcical fight that in no way shape or form could be competitive. On the other hand, I view Floyd-Sergio Martinez (of two years ago), Floyd-GGG now as competitive fights, where, frankly, I bet many might pick Floyd.

Who would you pick in a fight between Floyd and GGG?

Yes, I read your posts. I never said people wouldn't want to see the fights, I never said beating GGG wouldn't do wonders for Floyd's legacy, and I never said losing to him would detract a lot from his legacy. None of those were the issue and I never came close to bringing any of them up.

My issue is with you suggesting that Floyd owes the fans a move up to 160, and that him moving up to MW is no big deal. When you say things like "he claims he is the best ever and fans have to pay $75 to watch him fight", that implies very unambiguously that Floyd owes boxing fans a GGG fight, and I can quote you directly: " For boxing fans to want him to move up to 160 to fight the most-feared fighter at 160 is not too much to ask at all." I gave reasons why I disagreed with both statements.

As for who wins, GGG would beat him and probably do serious damage to him in the process. A few years ago, I'd have picked Floyd to pull the upset, but at 38 we've seen him decline over the past few years and he just doesn't have the legs to run from GGG all night and he wouldn't be able to tie him up as effectively on the inside as he does to smaller guys. That would be my guess. Unless they were fighting at a catch weight and GGG came in drained.

[Rantcatrat]

@ruthless rocco - with all due respect, you're being a little harsh, my friend. I frankly disagree with you. Duran started his career at 130 and fought legitimately up to 168. Duran never claimed to be the best ever either. Floyd's line of clothing is TBE. Enough said. For boxing fans to want him to move up to 160 to fight the most-feared fighter at 160 is not too much to ask at all, especially when he claims he is the best ever and fans have to pay $75 to watch him fight. It actually is an entirely reasonable request.

Second, it's not as far as off as you make it out to be. GGG weighed in at 165 on his thirty day weigh in for his next fight. He has offered to come down to 154 or a catch weight between 154 and 160 for a fight with Floyd. Floyd is the current champion in the junior middleweight division, only one division below.

Ortiz weighed in the night of at 164 for his fight against Floyd. Canelo weighed in the night of at 165. They rumble at 157 or 160 and you would probably see a five pound difference in the night of weight of GGG compared with Ortiz or Canelo.

I think the difference is that Duran ate his way up to those higher weights and fought there out of necessity when he got older.

In reality, Floyd is a small WW. And because I know people will disagree with that and quote heights and weights to me, let me explain: for most people this is obvious, but for those who might not know weight cutting has come a long way, and a guy who weighs 147 at the weigh in does not walk around at 147 and doesn't not fight at 147. A guy who fights at 147 will usually weigh 157 or more on fight day.

For reference, when Mayweather fought Sharmba Mitchell, Floyd was 147 at the weigh in and 148 on fight day. In contrast, Mitchell was 145 at the weigh in and 155 on fight night. Against Baldomir, Floyd was 146 weigh in, 149 fight night. Baldomir was 147 weigh in, 162 fight night. In the first Maidana fight, Mayweather was 146 weigh in and 148 on fight night. Maidana was 146 1/2 at weigh in and 165 on fight night. That's a nearly 20lb differential. Floyd's fight time weight of 146-151 is more comparable to the fight time weight of a junior WW or even a large LW.

So if Floyd is being outweighed by so much at WW, why do we expect him to go to 160 and fight an absolute killer, at 38 years old no less. A guy who's never entered a ring weighing more than 151lbs doesn't belong in a weigh class with guys who weigh in at 160 and come to the ring at 170 plus.

That aside, I don't even see why people feel the need for him to move up. It's not like he's cleared the division... the WW division is probably the hottest in boxing right now. There are a lot of young guys I'd love to see him fight. In fact, I'll go on record and say that I think Shawn Porter would beat the shit out of Floyd.

Did you even read my post? I explicitly said at least twice that Floyd didn't need to do anything. He's already made millions of dollars and been on top of the hill for a while. I said as a boxing fan, I'd like to see Floyd fight GGG because it appears on paper to be a challenging, competitive fight and it would present Floyd with the chance to be the lineal middleweight champion, something he hasn't accomplished yet.

To your point about legacy, adding a lineal middleweight belt to his legacy clearly would improve his legacy. Conversely, losing to the middleweight champion clearly would not lessen it.

I disagree with you though--I wouldn't like to see Floyd face Wlad. That's a farcical fight that in no way shape or form could be competitive. On the other hand, I view Floyd-Sergio Martinez (of two years ago), Floyd-GGG now as competitive fights, where, frankly, I bet many might pick Floyd.

Who would you pick in a fight between Floyd and GGG?

Yes, I read your posts. I never said people wouldn't want to see the fights, I never said beating GGG wouldn't do wonders for Floyd's legacy, and I never said losing to him would detract a lot from his legacy. None of those were the issue and I never came close to bringing any of them up.

My issue is with you suggesting that Floyd owes the fans a move up to 160, and that him moving up to MW is no big deal. When you say things like "he claims he is the best ever and fans have to pay $75 to watch him fight", that implies very unambiguously that Floyd owes boxing fans a GGG fight, and I can quote you directly: " For boxing fans to want him to move up to 160 to fight the most-feared fighter at 160 is not too much to ask at all." I gave reasons why I disagreed with both statements.

As for who wins, GGG would beat him and probably do serious damage to him in the process. A few years ago, I'd have picked Floyd to pull the upset, but at 38 we've seen him decline over the past few years and he just doesn't have the legs to run from GGG all night and he wouldn't be able to tie him up as effectively on the inside as he does to smaller guys. That would be my guess. Unless they were fighting at a catch weight and GGG came in drained.

If I suggested Floyd owed fans a move to 160, I was wrong. Floyd doesn't owe fans anything. That is in line with me saying that Floyd doesn't need to do anything. His legacy is secure for what it is. Same with all the greats of our era.

I never hold it against a fighter for not moving up. If they can make weight in safe fashion, they probably belong at that weight class. Moving up in that kind of situation only can improve a legacy, it can't hurt it. If GGG went up to 168 and was squashed by Froch or Ward, and moved back down to 160, I wouldn't hold it against him, but if he beat Froch or Ward, I would value it higher than beating a top guy at middleweight. At a certain point though, when the division is cleaned out, and no challenging fight can be made at their weight class, it makes sense from a legacy perspective to move up.

Let's consider Cotto. Cotto is no bigger than Floyd. Cotto went up to middleweight and beat Martinez. Cotto did something Floyd hasn't done. The desire to challenge himself at 160 against the middleweight champion of the world even though he didn't have to do it is something that greatly improves his legacy. Boxing fans wanted Cotto to face Martinez and Cotto showed it wasn't too much to ask. To prove that, he took the challenge.

I can only imagine how much you didn't want Cotto to face Martinez. Martinez was too big for him. He was too fast for him. 160 isn't Cotto's natural weight class.

My point was that the weight difference with GGG/Martinez (in the past) with Floyd's other opponents is actually about 5 pounds. 5 pounds is a lot in boxing but it isn't insurmountable for a fighter of Floyd's ability. As evidence, it wasn't insurmountable for Cotto, a guy who Floyd beat.

Also, who are you so excited to see Floyd face at 147-154? Are you really excited about Shawn Porter? I like the guy, but Kell Brook took him to school, and let's be honest, if Brook can do it, can't Floyd?

[ruthless rocco]

If I suggested Floyd owed fans a move to 160, I was wrong. Floyd doesn't owe fans anything. That is in line with me saying that Floyd doesn't need to do anything. His legacy is secure for what it is. Same with all the greats of our era.

I never hold it against a fighter for not moving up. If they can make weight in safe fashion, they probably belong at that weight class. Moving up in that kind of situation only can improve a legacy, it can't hurt it. If GGG went up to 168 and was squashed by Froch or Ward, and moved back down to 160, I wouldn't hold it against him, but if he beat Froch or Ward, I would value it higher than beating a top guy at middleweight. At a certain point though, when the division is cleaned out, and no challenging fight can be made at their weight class, it makes sense from a legacy perspective to move up.

Let's consider Cotto. Cotto is no bigger than Floyd. Cotto went up to middleweight and beat Martinez. Cotto did something Floyd hasn't done. The desire to challenge himself at 160 against the middleweight champion of the world even though he didn't have to do it is something that greatly improves his legacy. Boxing fans wanted Cotto to face Martinez and Cotto showed it wasn't too much to ask. To prove that, he took the challenge.

I can only imagine how much you didn't want Cotto to face Martinez. Martinez was too big for him. He was too fast for him. 160 isn't Cotto's natural weight class.

My point was that the weight difference with GGG/Martinez (in the past) with Floyd's other opponents is actually about 5 pounds. 5 pounds is a lot in boxing but it isn't insurmountable for a fighter of Floyd's ability. As evidence, it wasn't insurmountable for Cotto, a guy who Floyd beat.

Also, who are you so excited to see Floyd face at 147-154? Are you really excited about Shawn Porter? I like the guy, but Kell Brook took him to school, and let's be honest, if Brook can do it, can't Floyd?

Some thoughts on your Floyd/Cotto vs Golovkin/Martinez theory.

Floyd started at 130LBS. Cotto at 140LBs. Cotto is naturally bigger.

Martinez had well documented knee, ankle and broken hand issues going back to 2012. He looked lack lustre in many of his most recent fights. Barker, Macklin & Murray all gave him trouble. He was clearly a fighter on the decline.

In a Floyd vs GGG scenario it's Floyd that is moving up in weight and it's Floyd that's clearly the fighter whose abilities are declining. Are you able to see the difference?

Floyd's style of fighting involves speed, dexterity, movement and sharpness. Cotto's style is more rugged and depends on taking damage to inflict damage. He's used to getting hit in order to put hurt on people. Taking on a fighter like Martinez who had lost his mobility and power because of knee and ankle injuries and broken hands surgeries is not the same thing as an older, slower, less agile and less powerful Mayweather taking on a much bigger, more powerful younger GGG.

Do you see the differences?


Also, I'd like to mention that I chose Cotto to KO Martinez in the Saddo's prediction contest.

[ruthless rocco]

Looks like Floyd now has 2 potential champions as candidates to fight for titles at MW! HAhahaha!

But wait. Let me guess. He beat Cotto before so it doesn't count. Taylor was only ranked 15th by the IBF so no credit for that win. RIGHT??!!!