Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier

[Max Power]

I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.

Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree.

Yes I can just imagine David Haye being REAL intimidated by a guy who went balls to the wall with Doug Jones, got plastered by Henry Cooper and realistically got beaten by such luminary opponents like Bum Jimmy Young and bum beater Earnie "I can't even box" Shavers, for which they were robbed of their efforts.

Haye could not hold a candle to such overacheievers.

All his athleticism, speed, reflexes, elusiveness, counterpunching skills and power would be near worthless against those boys, but not Ali, he doesn't need any real skills, just heart and balls, the "unmeasurable" quantities.

Carl Fucking Thompson - you ass wipe.

Oh, yeah right! As if Carl Thompson was not a better opponent than most of Ali's early opponents.

OTNB logic, a boxer is a bum because they beat a great boxer which also makes him a bum. Real smart.

[Master]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

[Max Power]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.

Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!

Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.

It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.

Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ!

[brocktonblockbust]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.

Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!

Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.

It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.

Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ!

no, lets all hang rubbish on Haye because he is so utterly inactive, arrogant, never fought anybody great, went in with an injured toe, backed out of fights, and talked trash.

[Max Power]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.

Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!

Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.

It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.

Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ!

no, lets all hang rubbish on Haye because he is so utterly inactive, arrogant, never fought anybody great, went in with an injured toe, backed out of fights, and talked trash.

That's better.. Except "Never fought great opponents". What level of competition would you define as great? Who should Haye have fought? How do you know that Haye's opponents were no good? Have you watched all of them? What about his opponents opponents records? What were the weight differentials when he fought unlimited (HW)?

Seems to me that David Haye has a pretty excellent little boxing record. And has some fought A LOT of great fighters if you accept great to mean they were "great boxers". After winning championship as CW (a real small feat that one) and beating top cruiserweights like Mormeck, he proceeded to then step up to HW where he, unfortunately because of the era, even at 6'3" and 220-210 lbs (the same size as Ali except much more ripped at that weight) had to ALWAYS face contenders that were taller and heavier. The guy outboxed 7'0" 320lb Valuev, the greatest size differential in any HW boxing fight. Proceeded to knock out 4 more good opponents in Harrison, Barret, Ruiz and Chisora and survive Wladimir Klitschko.

I wouldn't rubbish Haye's record because it's better objectively than the 70's version alone of George Foreman's!

[Mr140]

Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.

[Max Power]

Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.

What a load of rubbish. Boxers fight, boxers bleed, they are happier when they win and sad when they lose. That much is ALWAYS the same from generation to generation. What the Klitschko's did is not normal, it is extraordinary. And most of their opponents are exceptional boxers, like David Haye for example.

Muhammad Ali's best win was vs a guy who COULD BARELY BOX at 218lbs who had absolutely nothing but a hard punch! Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skillset too to back it up.

How anybody cannot draw this comparison is outrageous!

And now you bummify the 80's era too by claiming today is only "marginally better" than that era?

It's unreal! Every objective person can see IMMEDIATELY that boxing only STARTED to become a professional sport, like basically every other sport too, in the 80's. Yet you will try to spin it that these guys couldn't hold a candle to previous eras?

Passing of the torch, it was OBVIOUS by the Lewis/Vitali fight that the Klitschko's are comparable. It was said of the 90's exactly when old Larry Holmes and old George Foreman stood strong in the 90's that imagine what they would have done in their primes vs guys like Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield. And it's the same that's being said now with the Klitschko's vs OLD Lennox Lewis. Haye vs OLD Thomson. Haye performing similar to OLD Holyfield vs Valuev.

What is overwhelming evidence for experience compensating somewhat for athleticism, and most often WEIGHT compensating as well, is being turned around as some sort of PROOF that every generation of boxers are getting worse!

NO generation is SPECIAL overall. The only thing that happens is that the sport itself evolves, and every generation of boxers gets better and better over time in general!

[Max Power]

Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.

What a load of rubbish. Boxers fight, boxers bleed, they are happier when they win and sad when they lose. That much is ALWAYS the same from generation to generation. What the Klitschko's did is not normal, it is extraordinary. And most of their opponents are exceptional boxers, like David Haye for example.

Muhammad Ali's best win was vs a guy who COULD BARELY BOX at 218lbs who had absolutely nothing but a hard punch! Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skillset too to back it up.

How anybody cannot draw this comparison is outrageous!

And now you bummify the 80's era too by claiming today is only "marginally better" than that era?

It's unreal! Every objective person can see IMMEDIATELY that boxing only STARTED to become a professional sport, like basically every other sport too, in the 80's. Yet you will try to spin it that these guys couldn't hold a candle to previous eras?

Passing of the torch, it was OBVIOUS by the Lewis/Vitali fight that the Klitschko's are comparable. It was said of the 90's exactly when old Larry Holmes and old George Foreman stood strong in the 90's that imagine what they would have done in their primes vs guys like Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield. And it's the same that's being said now with the Klitschko's vs OLD Lennox Lewis. Haye vs OLD Thomson. Haye performing similar to OLD Holyfield vs Valuev.

What is overwhelming evidence for experience compensating somewhat for athleticism, and most often WEIGHT compensating as well, is being turned around as some sort of PROOF that every generation of boxers are getting worse!

NO generation is SPECIAL overall. The only thing that happens is that the sport itself evolves, and every generation of boxers gets better and better over time in general!

How could it be otherwise!