Looking for the roots of terrorism

[Andre]

3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

There are both though! We have home grown terrorists and we have home grown fighters who head back to their birth places to fight for Allah and Mohammad.

Some work single for sure, like that fuckwit in Sydney who killed in the cafe recently. But many also eventually are organized into cells too its a fact,911 was a group of men who broke into 3 organized cells on a timed hit, how can it be seen any other way? It occurs both ways so why only look one way at it I dont really get it?

Unless maybe we are on total crossed purposes here mate and I think you might be talking about and are trying to stem the real dumb from within our western societies getting ideas and heading for the Mosques and disrupting the innocent families there -young angry men eventually going in with the old style like the shaved heads and bother boots of old routine to rout them out in their evil dopey mindless fucking way.Those types of people who get dumbed down enough to attack Muslim women on trains etc.
That has to be your thoughts here?

There are young -------- (you fill in the blanks call em what you like, see what you come up with as a term Id be very interested) men leaving our shores to go and fight against our armies overseas.Thats a fact happened in the Afgan conflict to a minor degree now in Syria ina larger degree, we cant stop them returning back to their birth home to fight for Allah and Mohammads cause of Jihad;its happening,it is an occurrence.
They are not single criminals and physcopaths.

Where they form into groups was the main item and the main question raised here in this journos works.Not if they form into groups.

Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?

I cant think of any answer for that question, except "they are not hiding in amongst their own religion". I await to stand corrected on that view.

The fundamentalist groups these lads aim at joining have recently stated to these would be soldiers of Allah and Mohammad the last prophet; "Stay in your countries there and spill blood there". Sure some fuckwits will singly get up and do exactly that. Some will be in pairs some in threes or more.

I dont get the one eyed views either way, as if it all has to be viewed one way or the other which somehow makes one view right and one wrong. This is a big subject with many fights on many fronts you cant white wash all occurrences away with one other new found true fact and that was this journalists approach it wasnt just reporting it was nailing a flag in and making a claim. (Just my view,trying to look at it both ways so to speak).

[Gandalf]

The roots of modern terrorism come from the kinds of things Kirkland mentioned, but today we have swept Iraq under a rug, refuse to publish the Chilcott whitewash, funded terrorists and then carried on bombing countries that we illegally invaded. Westminster is one of the founding roots of modern terrorism. If we are more likely talking about blowback attacks by angry, disenfranchised people, then I agree with Beanz and Ryan that there is no masterplan resistance and that is why the entire war on terror is nothing more than a scam to spy on people and justify not saving lives in hospitals.

[Andre]

True. Oh well, you wont have any choice in anything eventually. Two groups are growing at a vast rate industrially one group on one front and religiously another group on another.
We are nearly done mate.Our leaders bought it on and we paid for them to do it and we will continue to pay in other ways.

[Gandalf]

It's amazing how quickly the entire system appears to be showing itself for what it is. The rise of the super rich and the demonisation of Islam go hand in hand for me. The war on terror looks to be little more than an excuse to protect the super rich from the pissed off public after the biggest bank robbery of all time and after an illegal war and with no prosecutions for war crimes! It would almost be hilarious in its audacity if it wasn't so fucking wrong.

[Andre]

Yes our governments are wrong and No they are not the reason behind this 100% .

Jesus Miles they just executed their own people for watching their own country play football on the Television!!!

For fucks sake look at them for what they are!

[Gandalf]

My basic questions are a) Where did these invaders come from? b) What radicalised these people? and C ) Why did Iraq get into such bad shape?

I see that bad things are happening. I see that there are people suffering. So why are the people who started all this not in prison? Why are we doubling down on the wrong that we started? Iraqi people are not being helped, their country has been obliterated. All we care about is trying to sell and use more weapons of death and steal their resources. People always seem to want to wash over recent history be it the media or parliament.

You cannot look at today's terrorist without considering the terrorists that started it all, otherwise it is false. You have to be honest about your past to face the demons of the present. The system doesn't want to face up to reality and you see even with the panel of the Chilcot inquiry a bunch of men who are part of the machine and in the system and a reluctance to ever publish their conclusions without first of all seeking war criminal Blair's approval. It's a whitewash, a waste of millions of pounds, a toothless distraction. 'There's terrorism....any amount to fight terrorism!'. It's bullshit.

The main source of terror comes from immense systems of power and control. Outlying terror comes from violent groups of resistance and from radicalisation caused by main source of terror. These sicknesses feed upon one another and the victim is democracy and freedom.

[brocktonblockbust]

chicken and the egg thing: did this start during the 8th-11th centuries though? Muslims expanding into europe....and didnt the crusades-era create a nearly infinite animosity between the west and islam? i think there must be plenty of residual hatred, vengeance, etc. from all that. Then you have colonialism and partitioning and nation building adding to the resentment. There were no such countries as Jordan, Kuwait, Israel, etc. and the dividing up and installing Puppets like Mubarak etc. didn't help matters out either. Meddling in Iranian politics in the 50s (Mossadegh)....Culminating in Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr. certainly didnt help to combat any of that with their campaigns in Iraq, etc.

All these play significant parts in the roots of terrorism. I say its 50/50 like most things----both sides contributed quite equally.

[Beanz]

3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

There are both though! We have home grown terrorists and we have home grown fighters who head back to their birth places to fight for Allah and Mohammad.

Some work single for sure, like that fuckwit in Sydney who killed in the cafe recently. But many also eventually are organized into cells too its a fact,911 was a group of men who broke into 3 organized cells on a timed hit, how can it be seen any other way? It occurs both ways so why only look one way at it I dont really get it?

Unless maybe we are on total crossed purposes here mate and I think you might be talking about and are trying to stem the real dumb from within our western societies getting ideas and heading for the Mosques and disrupting the innocent families there -young angry men eventually going in with the old style like the shaved heads and bother boots of old routine to rout them out in their evil dopey mindless fucking way.Those types of people who get dumbed down enough to attack Muslim women on trains etc.
That has to be your thoughts here?

There are young -------- (you fill in the blanks call em what you like, see what you come up with as a term Id be very interested) men leaving our shores to go and fight against our armies overseas.Thats a fact happened in the Afgan conflict to a minor degree now in Syria ina larger degree, we cant stop them returning back to their birth home to fight for Allah and Mohammads cause of Jihad;its happening,it is an occurrence.
They are not single criminals and physcopaths.

Where they form into groups was the main item and the main question raised here in this journos works.Not if they form into groups.

Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?

I cant think of any answer for that question, except "they are not hiding in amongst their own religion". I await to stand corrected on that view.

The fundamentalist groups these lads aim at joining have recently stated to these would be soldiers of Allah and Mohammad the last prophet; "Stay in your countries there and spill blood there". Sure some fuckwits will singly get up and do exactly that. Some will be in pairs some in threes or more.

I dont get the one eyed views either way, as if it all has to be viewed one way or the other which somehow makes one view right and one wrong. This is a big subject with many fights on many fronts you cant white wash all occurrences away with one other new found true fact and that was this journalists approach it wasnt just reporting it was nailing a flag in and making a claim. (Just my view,trying to look at it both ways so to speak).

Andre.

You of all people should know me well enough by now to realise that I am not a subscriber to 'one eye views'. I should then maybe make myself clearer. The article is an interview with an Anthropologist, not the views of a journalist, so already it is presenting another way of looking at something. So yes it wasn't merely reporting, but making a point is not the same as making a claim that seeks to whitewash the argument ? I too do not think that the only point worth making is that potential terrorist are not all just hiding in amongst their own religion, I am merely trying to stop the whole discussion descending into ever decreasing circles of blame and very little headway being made.


"It’s the organized anarchy of it that does more to terrorize than actually carefully planned commando operations"

The threat is unpredictable and in his realm it is his job to try and understand behavioural patterns and then help predict it.

I do not subscribe to the idea of these being staged events with crisis actors like Miles does, I think that is beyond myopic and incredibly offensive. I also do not subscribe to the easy 2 =2 + 4 argument of Kirkland that seeks to solely blame the actions of Western Governments. I also don't think that closing all Mosques is likely to achieve much either except fostering animosity and attacks on all small ethnic and religious groups. And yet I am expected to respond to stuff like this ?


"Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?"



This is extremely disingenuous. IT has become like forum apartheid. Why would you think I was against routing out terrorists? That's crazy and I am getting sick to the back teeth of it to be honest. You try and take a balanced approach and you get labelled a bleeding heart liberal (not by you). Yes I get pissed with people using terms like "so called educated" because it took that guy 6 or 7 years of hard work to get recognised for his expertise and I love education. I work in education and people pay thousands of pounds to better themselves and expand their brain, mind, experience and intellect, often whilst working long hours and sometimes bringing up a family, and so I will not so easily dismiss them with some mislead notion that the academic life is an easy one. Many Anthropologists live for years in tribal societies and have just as many valid spiritual, mental and life experiences as you. Ryan spent years studying immigration at a very high level and yet he is dismissed because people like to make themselves self appointed experts or rely on half baked ideas and hearsay.


I always try to look at things from more than one fixed point of view and I regret any suggestion that I do otherwise. I am not angry or preaching Or hounding anyone. but please people stop assuming any alternative view is some kind of attack or bleeding hearted liberal capitulation. It's impossible to have a discussion when people have already filled in your half of the conversation before you open your mouth.

[ryanman]

@Andre Don't forget that Greenbeanz is the one that created this thread -
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gies-evil.html

I think he takes a very balanced and objective view mate. He never makes excuses for the acts, he doesn't deny that there is a problem of an extremist strand in Islam. Yet he also doesn't make sweeping statements that are anti Islamic.
Also, when discussing the causes of Islamic extremism he is balanced in that he can see,and has often said, that the causes are more complex than those often put forward. Saying that he doesn't want all the mosques closed doesn't mean he is in denial that there is an issue that needs addressing.

[Andre]

@Andre Don't forget that Greenbeanz is the one that created this thread -
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gies-evil.html

I think he takes a very balanced and objective view mate. He never makes excuses for the acts, he doesn't deny that there is a problem of an extremist strand in Islam. Yet he also doesn't make sweeping statements that are anti Islamic.
Also, when discussing the causes of Islamic extremism he is balanced in that he can see,and has often said, that the causes are more complex than those often put forward. Saying that he doesn't want all the mosques closed doesn't mean he is in denial that there is an issue that needs addressing.

Sure, and me pointing out some factual events and a whole section of terrorism the Anthropologist fellow omitted doesnt make me the reverse to him or anti education either.

[Beanz]

@Andre Don't forget that Greenbeanz is the one that created this thread -
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gies-evil.html

I think he takes a very balanced and objective view mate. He never makes excuses for the acts, he doesn't deny that there is a problem of an extremist strand in Islam. Yet he also doesn't make sweeping statements that are anti Islamic.
Also, when discussing the causes of Islamic extremism he is balanced in that he can see,and has often said, that the causes are more complex than those often put forward. Saying that he doesn't want all the mosques closed doesn't mean he is in denial that there is an issue that needs addressing.

Sure, and me pointing out some factual events and a whole section of terrorism the Anthropologist fellow omitted doesnt make me the reverse to him or anti education either.

Of course not but terms like "so called educated" can hardly be interpreted as a ringing endorsement of education either. I can not speak for Ryan or anyone else, but it is certainly not my intention to polarise debate, far from it. I have never suggested people disagreeing must somehow take the reverse position of any point that I am making, or an argument I agree with, but it is something that I have thrown in my face everyday. People seem unable or unwilling to tolerate anything but one extreme or another. Life in my experience is never ever that simple.

[Andre]

@Andre Don't forget that Greenbeanz is the one that created this thread -
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gies-evil.html

I think he takes a very balanced and objective view mate. He never makes excuses for the acts, he doesn't deny that there is a problem of an extremist strand in Islam. Yet he also doesn't make sweeping statements that are anti Islamic.
Also, when discussing the causes of Islamic extremism he is balanced in that he can see,and has often said, that the causes are more complex than those often put forward. Saying that he doesn't want all the mosques closed doesn't mean he is in denial that there is an issue that needs addressing.

Sure, and me pointing out some factual events and a whole section of terrorism the Anthropologist fellow omitted doesnt make me the reverse to him or anti education either.

Of course not but terms like "so called educated" can hardly be interpreted as a ringing endorsement of education either. I can not speak for Ryan or anyone else, but it is certainly not my intention to polarise debate, far from it. I have never suggested people disagreeing must somehow take the reverse position of any point that I am making, or an argument I agree with, but it is something that I have thrown in my face everyday. People seem unable or unwilling to tolerate anything but one extreme or another. Life in my experience is never ever that simple.

Did I write so called educated? I couldnt find where I did that? ,if it was me, then i would of been pointing out this fellow aimed at one part of terrorism and then painted the whole scene from that one point. Thats how I read it, but I am uneducated .

[ryanman]

@Andre Don't forget that Greenbeanz is the one that created this thread -
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gies-evil.html

I think he takes a very balanced and objective view mate. He never makes excuses for the acts, he doesn't deny that there is a problem of an extremist strand in Islam. Yet he also doesn't make sweeping statements that are anti Islamic.
Also, when discussing the causes of Islamic extremism he is balanced in that he can see,and has often said, that the causes are more complex than those often put forward. Saying that he doesn't want all the mosques closed doesn't mean he is in denial that there is an issue that needs addressing.

Sure, and me pointing out some factual events and a whole section of terrorism the Anthropologist fellow omitted doesnt make me the reverse to him or anti education either.

Of course not mate.

[Andre]

3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

There are both though! We have home grown terrorists and we have home grown fighters who head back to their birth places to fight for Allah and Mohammad.

Some work single for sure, like that fuckwit in Sydney who killed in the cafe recently. But many also eventually are organized into cells too its a fact,911 was a group of men who broke into 3 organized cells on a timed hit, how can it be seen any other way? It occurs both ways so why only look one way at it I dont really get it?

Unless maybe we are on total crossed purposes here mate and I think you might be talking about and are trying to stem the real dumb from within our western societies getting ideas and heading for the Mosques and disrupting the innocent families there -young angry men eventually going in with the old style like the shaved heads and bother boots of old routine to rout them out in their evil dopey mindless fucking way.Those types of people who get dumbed down enough to attack Muslim women on trains etc.
That has to be your thoughts here?

There are young -------- (you fill in the blanks call em what you like, see what you come up with as a term Id be very interested) men leaving our shores to go and fight against our armies overseas.Thats a fact happened in the Afgan conflict to a minor degree now in Syria ina larger degree, we cant stop them returning back to their birth home to fight for Allah and Mohammads cause of Jihad;its happening,it is an occurrence.
They are not single criminals and physcopaths.

Where they form into groups was the main item and the main question raised here in this journos works.Not if they form into groups.

Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?

I cant think of any answer for that question, except "they are not hiding in amongst their own religion". I await to stand corrected on that view.

The fundamentalist groups these lads aim at joining have recently stated to these would be soldiers of Allah and Mohammad the last prophet; "Stay in your countries there and spill blood there". Sure some fuckwits will singly get up and do exactly that. Some will be in pairs some in threes or more.

I dont get the one eyed views either way, as if it all has to be viewed one way or the other which somehow makes one view right and one wrong. This is a big subject with many fights on many fronts you cant white wash all occurrences away with one other new found true fact and that was this journalists approach it wasnt just reporting it was nailing a flag in and making a claim. (Just my view,trying to look at it both ways so to speak).

Andre.

You of all people should know me well enough by now to realise that I am not a subscriber to 'one eye views'. I should then maybe make myself clearer. The article is an interview with an Anthropologist, not the views of a journalist, so already it is presenting another way of looking at something. So yes it wasn't merely reporting, but making a point is not the same as making a claim that seeks to whitewash the argument ? I too do not think that the only point worth making is that potential terrorist are not all just hiding in amongst their own religion, I am merely trying to stop the whole discussion descending into ever decreasing circles of blame and very little headway being made.


"It’s the organized anarchy of it that does more to terrorize than actually carefully planned commando operations"

The threat is unpredictable and in his realm it is his job to try and understand behavioural patterns and then help predict it.

I do not subscribe to the idea of these being staged events with crisis actors like Miles does, I think that is beyond myopic and incredibly offensive. I also do not subscribe to the easy 2 =2 + 4 argument of Kirkland that seeks to solely blame the actions of Western Governments. I also don't think that closing all Mosques is likely to achieve much either except fostering animosity and attacks on all small ethnic and religious groups. And yet I am expected to respond to stuff like this ?


"Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?"



This is extremely disingenuous. IT has become like forum apartheid. Why would you think I was against routing out terrorists? That's crazy and I am getting sick to the back teeth of it to be honest. You try and take a balanced approach and you get labelled a bleeding heart liberal (not by you). Yes I get pissed with people using terms like "so called educated" because it took that guy 6 or 7 years of hard work to get recognised for his expertise and I love education. I work in education and people pay thousands of pounds to better themselves and expand their brain, mind, experience and intellect, often whilst working long hours and sometimes bringing up a family, and so I will not so easily dismiss them with some mislead notion that the academic life is an easy one. Many Anthropologists live for years in tribal societies and have just as many valid spiritual, mental and life experiences as you. Ryan spent years studying immigration at a very high level and yet he is dismissed because people like to make themselves self appointed experts or rely on half baked ideas and hearsay.


I always try to look at things from more than one fixed point of view and I regret any suggestion that I do otherwise. I am not angry or preaching Or hounding anyone. but please people stop assuming any alternative view is some kind of attack or bleeding hearted liberal capitulation. It's impossible to have a discussion when people have already filled in your half of the conversation before you open your mouth.

Ok we are on the same page.
Im all for routing out these fuckers where there meet.
In reality here in Australia, ASIO are doing that undercover within Islam and that is the only way to find out who is stepping out of their back doors for private meetings and grooming their kids for war against us here in the west.

I 've never been with the close all mosques idea either. That would bring open warfare onto our streets if you think about the stages and where it would all lead.

Thing is here in the forum,I've pointed out that its a fact we know where these lads are coming from here and it is the other side of homegrown terrorism, I belive the Anthropologist fellow who went and interviewed terrorists interviewed ones that strike at home not the already organised system of recruting from within the religion and there was no mention of that or that those lines do cross at times as seen in 911.

My beliefs about it stem from the arrests out here and where they actually found these fellows,I think its right to go in after them.

People out there whos main aim is to protect the rights of individuals to practice what they like above everything else and belive the goverment is trying to form more controls over everyone through fear of this religion etc are jaded. They ignore real threats,real facts to prove their points and will try to dump others into the reverse group to theirs politically and the reverse occurs too then they both lose focus in the blame game, meanwhile the physical threat to us all is still building its reserves and numbers from within.