What makes an ATG?

[El Kabong]

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would have been second rate if they had to play against blacks and so would Dempsey and Tunney.

The reason I disagree is that Boxing has a clear cut guy that is THE MAN and baseball being a team sport is less about the individual so it wouldn't have been Satchel Paige vs Babe Ruth 3 outs an inning for 9 innings....both could excel and do fine. In boxing you have Jack Dempsey, his manager supposedly turned down a fight vs Harry Wills or Sam Langford well after their primes, because they wanted a tune up fight not a tooth and nail battle.

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would ALWAYS be Hall of Famers regardless of who they played against, just look at the numbers. Sure there was Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, James 'Cool Papa' Bell and they were greats themselves but the Negro Leagues were by no means deeper with talent than the MLB especially with pitchers. Comparing and contrasting these guys and debating on how they would do is all speculation but I know and am 100% certain that the big stars of that baseball era would have still been big stars regardless of Blacks or Hispanics or Asians being on their teams....big shout out to Worldwide HR record holder Sadaharu Oh who had 868 homeruns for the Yomiuri Giants albeit in a league that was certainly lower caliber than the MLB in his era 1959-1980.

But yeah black boxers back in the day there were a lot of them that could have been and should have been champions especially Willis and Langford

[Master]

ATG must have consistantcy at the highest level, career defining fight(s) against equally good competition, have to show heart and courage from adversity and have fights that are events.

[greynotsoold]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

Fighting southpaws really shouldn't be a big deal any more because every other fighter is a southpaw. It used to be problematic because they were very rare and it isn't like it is impossible to do anyway. especially when modern southpaws throw nothing but straight left hands, and extra especially when you are 6'7" and can reach over the top of them.
dempsey fought black guys on the way up. Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

[Beanflicker]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

[brocktonblockbust]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

this may indeed be true. And if so then Rocky Marciano sure did fight the best black boxers that were out there at the time

[SlimTrae]

As a black man: I don't get downing Tunney for what was common in his day. The last time I checked Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins and a few other blacks have lost to dare I say, white guys.

[Master]

The economic conditions mean that the poorest people go into boxing Irish, Jews, Italians, Mexican and Blacks.

Skin colour does not make a great fighter.

[goti71]

The economic conditions mean that the poorest people go into boxing Irish, Jews, Italians, Mexican and Blacks.

Skin colour does not make a great fighter.

Clear as water; it's a matter of statistical probability.

[Beanflicker]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

this may indeed be true. And if so then Rocky Marciano sure did fight the best black boxers that were out there at the time

Yes and that's why the Rock is an ATG HW legend and a true warrior of the sport.

[Beanflicker]

Skin colour does not make a great fighter.

No but it does mean (on average) a higher quality of athlete.

Black people have largely dominated the sport of boxing (especially the HW division) since they were given the opportunities they deserved. Why would anyone think the Dempsey/Tunney era would be any different?

To me it's a tainted era and I don't put much stock into those guys. People like to talk about how "protected" guys are today and how they don't take the fights they should.

[SlimTrae]

I undertand it in theory, but technically speaking, then a guy like Benny Leonard could he have been overated since he didnt fight many Mexicans- who dominate the smaller weight classes?

[Beanflicker]

I undertand it in theory, but technically speaking, then a guy like Benny Leonard could he have been overated since he didnt fight many Mexicans- who dominate the smaller weight classes?

For sure, and he probably is overrated.

When you become a boxing fan who decides to go back and learn about boxing's yesteryears, we all get the same lines fed to us. Stories about how great this guy and that guy was, how much tougher everyone was, how everybody fought for the love of boxing and fought all the best opposition, ect ect. There's a lot of truth in there I'm sure, but there's also a lot of bullshit. The problem is most people are scared shitless in actually going against the grain, researching and actually forming their own opinions. And frankly, most don't want to, because their heads are full of dreamy nostalgic visions of a "better time", and to suggest that a guy might not have been all he was cracked up to be is like pissing on the bible or the quran.

[Beanflicker]

If you want to talk specifically about the analogy you made though, boxing was a relatively new art in Mexico at the time of Benny Leonard brought over from Cuba, and Mexico wasn't producing the kind of fighters like obviously it became known for later on.

In the days of Gene Tunney and Dempsey, there were a ton of black boxers who were (generally) athletically superior, filled with anger from the way they had been and continued to be treated by white society, and a desire to break out of their impoverished beginnings.

[Master]

If you want to talk specifically about the analogy you made though, boxing was a relatively new art in Mexico at the time of Benny Leonard brought over from Cuba, and Mexico wasn't producing the kind of fighters like obviously it became known for later on.

In the days of Gene Tunney and Dempsey, there were a ton of black boxers who were (generally) athletically superior, filled with anger from the way they had been and continued to be treated by white society, and a desire to break out of their impoverished beginnings.

Dempsey did fight Black fighters whom he beat and he was close to defending his title against the leading Black fighter.

[SlimTrae]

If you want to talk specifically about the analogy you made though, boxing was a relatively new art in Mexico at the time of Benny Leonard brought over from Cuba, and Mexico wasn't producing the kind of fighters like obviously it became known for later on.

In the days of Gene Tunney and Dempsey, there were a ton of black boxers who were (generally) athletically superior, filled with anger from the way they had been and continued to be treated by white society, and a desire to break out of their impoverished beginnings.

Technically I understand as I named a fighter who started much earlier than the Mexicans I would have referenced like Jose Flores aka Battling Shaw in the late 1920's.

I just try to keep it in perspective that every sport had to be integrated, so do we draw the line or hold all white athletes accountable if they didn't face an athlete who race/ethnicity rules today?

As I'm sure; before the word pugilism made it to Mexico, there was more than a fare share of fist fights occurring in Tijuana & then some.

it's not like when American football or baseball made it there- that's a lot of stuff to learn. But a boxing match skill wise in the 1910s/1920's was basically a fistfight with mittens on IMO.

I guess Gorgeous George then would have gotten his buttocks kicked had their been a Dwayne the Rock Johnson to wrestle? Can you smell...what the Rock is cookin?