Did RJJ Kill HBO Boxing?

[Ron Swanson]

i think about how HBO conducted business during its heyday, and remember the business model being elite fighters signed to exclusive, long term contracts. It worked when you had a sweet pea Whitaker who moves up to 140 after cleaning out 135 and white washing the #2 fighter (Pineda), before moving up again to face #3 p4p McGirt to force #1 p4p Chavez to fight him. It works when Oscar fights Sweet Pea, Ike Quartey, Tito, Mosley, Vargas...etc., and his “easy” fights are against Miguel Angel Garcia, David Kamau, and Oba Carr.

That model broke when Roy was signed to a long contract and didn’t fight his topped perceived threats after James Toney until the Tarver fight. This is not to say Roy was solely to blame, or even wrong for his mindset and business savvy. This is just to point out the different perspective Roy brought and how that changed the game with how fighters viewed the risk of fighting consistent top notch competition.

As for some of the comments on bias and Roy fighting and toying with great comletition: get a grip. Some facts about Roy:
1. He never completely unified any division he was in (Darius was lineal champ and they never even fought).
2. The only p4p ranked fighter Roy ever beat (while they were ranked p4p) was Toney.
3. Roy is the only elite fighter I can remember who was boycotted for fighting sub par opposition. This isnt me being biased, this boycott was orchestrated by a number of fans who felt as a collective that Roy was ducking Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Nunn, Darius, Graciano, Jirov...etc.

So it’s Roy’s fault fans are stupid? Who cares what P4P rankings say, BHop was great long before people knew it. He was great when Roy fought him, regardless of ignorance.

Roy never said he wouldn’t fight his subordinates, he said he needed to be paid accordingly. Everyone should have been chasing Roy, anyone that wasn’t desperate to fight the top guy is at fault. The guy in the lead doesn’t chase those behind him.

Lots of people hate Roy because he was so damn good. They invent nonsense like saying BHop was better because he was good longer, it’s gibberish because he was never as good. That’s how you tell how good someone is, by how good they are. Jirov, Jirov, we’re really talking about Jirov hahahaha

Roy Jones is the most talented fighter any of us has ever seen live, by FAR. Appreciate it

[p4pking]

How would Roy singlehandedly have had so much as a role in it? He disappeared from the upper echelon of the sport 15 years ago... HBO has had plenty of top fighters and shown plenty of top cards since then, but they were slowly phasing boxing out for ages. I don’t know how theyre doing overall, but as was said they’ve always had far more lucrative programming.

[Freedom]

Roy Jones has been a fine commentator/analyst. I always appreciated his insights.

Max Kellerman is awful though. I'm sure he's one of the reasons for HBO boxing's demise, he's so fake and disingenuous - he turned a lot of people off.

[Spicoli]

Losing Greenburg to the rival was massive and the inundation of so many forms of competition followed. I think partially hbo got to full of themselves and fans helped them do it thinking it was THE only platform of star potential and massive fights. In fairness it was to a degree but they lost their way when they started thinking they knew what was best for fans by effectively black balling top caliber fighters. Remember when they tried using Ed Lover to host a KO hbo brand or something? That certainly didn't help them. They had a bad run of trying to microwave potential phenoms to star class as mentioned. Bojado, Williams, and even Vargas to a degree and at the end were trying the same failed process with the likes of a Cletis Seldin and calling him a Mike Tyson ffs. Roy Jones was given a red carpet and at the time had the largest contract they had ever afforded and they shipped in one to many rotating 'mandatories' all in the name of Roy covering himself in a layer of belts. Hyping the whole two sports schtick and rolling him out literally on a Broadway stage and allowing middleweights like Otis Grant to be butchered for the lt heavyweight title. I don't blame him completely as he just milked the cow that was given to him but still fans fell for what were some guaranteed mismatches and just yelled greatness. In hindsight you get the feeling the writing was on the wall for hbo for some time but they kept plugging along riding a ghost ship and went out meek.

[powerpuncher]

Roy Jones has been a fine commentator/analyst. I always appreciated his insights.

Max Kellerman is awful though. I'm sure he's one of the reasons for HBO boxing's demise, he's so fake and disingenuous - he turned a lot of people off.

I’m the opposite. I actually don’t mind Kellerman. He has some annoying things about him, but I don’t mind him. Roy was insufferable as a commentator. Extremely biased and always seemed to want to argue. Couldn’t stand him. I really hope no one picks him up.

[brocktonblockbust]

Roy Jones is one of the greatest fighters of all time

[mikeeod]

Roy Jones is one of the greatest fighters of all time

I don’t disagree with you on this. I think he is the most gifted ever, even more than Meldrick Taylor, Ali, and Floyd. I also agree with most that if he had fought all of the others considered his biggest threats he would’ve won almost all of them (everyone has style issues n bad days) and had the potential to surpass Ray Robinson as the GOAT. He didn’t accomplish those things however and that is the larger point of this post.

[brocktonblockbust]

Roy Jones is one of the greatest fighters of all time

I don’t disagree with you on this. I think he is the most gifted ever, even more than Meldrick Taylor, Ali, and Floyd. I also agree with most that if he had fought all of the others considered his biggest threats he would’ve won almost all of them (everyone has style issues n bad days) and had the potential to surpass Ray Robinson as the GOAT. He didn’t accomplish those things however and that is the larger point of this post.

I do agree with you that he did not accomplish those things.

[TitoFan]

How would Roy singlehandedly have had so much as a role in it? He disappeared from the upper echelon of the sport 15 years ago... HBO has had plenty of top fighters and shown plenty of top cards since then, but they were slowly phasing boxing out for ages. I don’t know how theyre doing overall, but as was said they’ve always had far more lucrative programming.

Yeah I'm gonna agree with that. HBO Boxing was too big at its peak to be "killed off" by any one commentator, analyst, etc. HBO bigwigs said it themselves. They just felt boxing wasn't the attraction it used to be. So they moved on. I likened them to the girl at the bar who will leave with whoever has the nicest car and I still feel that way. It's a cold business, with no room for melancholy. To me, some marketing gurus up there must've whispered in the executives' ears that extreme sports, documentaries, and whatever else HBO is into now... that's where it's at.

IMO, blame lies with boxing itself, and also the fans to an extent. Boxing has done itself no favors with shitty decisions, questionable treatment of cheaters in boxing, favoritism, and other issues. Fans are by large a fickle bunch with a "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Unfortunately we can't have 3-4 mega fights a year like in the golden days. Maybe it's because we don't have the star power boxers we used to have.... maybe it's because promoters are a greedy bunch of bastards sucking the blood out of boxing while the boxing fans turn away... who knows.

[mikeeod]

How would Roy singlehandedly have had so much as a role in it? He disappeared from the upper echelon of the sport 15 years ago... HBO has had plenty of top fighters and shown plenty of top cards since then, but they were slowly phasing boxing out for ages. I don’t know how theyre doing overall, but as was said they’ve always had far more lucrative programming.

Master was correct in his initial post/observation that my title asks if Roy killed boxing on HBO, but my post asks if Roy added to HBO boxing’s demise. My son would call that “click bait” (I think), but I really was only trying to keep the title short (not misrepresent). For the record, I think everyone has been correct in their observations of additional factors of the demise.

The point is that Roy changed the approach of fighters from fighting to get the long term contract on HBO, and then fighting the best like the suits wanted to fighting the best to get the contract and then minimizing risk by fighting inferior competition for as long as possible. Floyd used a similar strategy of minimizing risk (both in opponent selection and during the fight), but in my opinion Floyd was better at the game and fought better competition overall. This isn’t to say I think either guy was wrong, or not great, or scared...etc., just that both put money over what the fans wanted to see.

[Master]

Floyd is the bigger killer, how TV executives overpaid for the primadonna I do not know.

[mikeeod]

Floyd is the bigger killer, how TV executives overpaid for the primadonna I do not know.

I’m torn over Floyd. Some days I agree with you 100% because I think of the Manny fight and some of the times Floyd played it safe and didn’t get the stoppage when he could have. Other days I think his brand, his character (Money May)/schtick, and events like the Connor fight brought boxing to another level. I love the guy’s skill in the ring, his intelligence (very street smart), and the fact that he had the courage to believe in himself, buy his contract out from Arum and make himself the success he is. It’s hard for me to tell what is just an act and how much is actually him being a douche.

[Master]

Floyd is the bigger killer, how TV executives overpaid for the primadonna I do not know.

I’m torn over Floyd. Some days I agree with you 100% because I think of the Manny fight and some of the times Floyd played it safe and didn’t get the stoppage when he could have. Other days I think his brand, his character (Money May)/schtick, and events like the Connor fight brought boxing to another level. I love the guy’s skill in the ring, his intelligence (very street smart), and the fact that he had the courage to believe in himself, buy his contract out from Arum and make himself the success he is. It’s hard for me to tell what is just an act and how much is actually him being a douche.

Fair enough but I think he is more douche bag than pioneer.

[brocktonblockbust]

I agree with master. Floyd Mayweather Jr completely destroyed the sport of boxing

[mikeeod]

i think about how HBO conducted business during its heyday, and remember the business model being elite fighters signed to exclusive, long term contracts. It worked when you had a sweet pea Whitaker who moves up to 140 after cleaning out 135 and white washing the #2 fighter (Pineda), before moving up again to face #3 p4p McGirt to force #1 p4p Chavez to fight him. It works when Oscar fights Sweet Pea, Ike Quartey, Tito, Mosley, Vargas...etc., and his “easy” fights are against Miguel Angel Garcia, David Kamau, and Oba Carr.

That model broke when Roy was signed to a long contract and didn’t fight his topped perceived threats after James Toney until the Tarver fight. This is not to say Roy was solely to blame, or even wrong for his mindset and business savvy. This is just to point out the different perspective Roy brought and how that changed the game with how fighters viewed the risk of fighting consistent top notch competition.

As for some of the comments on bias and Roy fighting and toying with great comletition: get a grip. Some facts about Roy:
1. He never completely unified any division he was in (Darius was lineal champ and they never even fought).
2. The only p4p ranked fighter Roy ever beat (while they were ranked p4p) was Toney.
3. Roy is the only elite fighter I can remember who was boycotted for fighting sub par opposition. This isnt me being biased, this boycott was orchestrated by a number of fans who felt as a collective that Roy was ducking Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Nunn, Darius, Graciano, Jirov...etc.

So it’s Roy’s fault fans are stupid? Who cares what P4P rankings say, BHop was great long before people knew it. He was great when Roy fought him, regardless of ignorance.

Roy never said he wouldn’t fight his subordinates, he said he needed to be paid accordingly. Everyone should have been chasing Roy, anyone that wasn’t desperate to fight the top guy is at fault. The guy in the lead doesn’t chase those behind him.

Lots of people hate Roy because he was so damn good. They invent nonsense like saying BHop was better because he was good longer, it’s gibberish because he was never as good. That’s how you tell how good someone is, by how good they are. Jirov, Jirov, we’re really talking about Jirov hahahaha

Roy Jones is the most talented fighter any of us has ever seen live, by FAR. Appreciate it

Are fans “stupid” because they want to see competitive fights As for what p4p rankings say, it isn’t that people “care” as much as it is a way to gauge who the top fighters are at the the time. P4P rankings show top fighters in the sport at the time of the rankings- you may disagree with the order/placement, but there is no denying they are among the best in the sport.

The point was someone like Oscar fought Tito, Quartey, Sweet Pea, Moseley...etc., while they were in there prime and at their best (p4p ranked high at the time). Mosley fought Oscar, Winky, Floyd, and Margarito. Holyfield fought Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer...etc. BHop fought Tito, Winky, Tarver, Pavlik...etc., while they were ranked p4p. Roy fought Toney. Regardless of whose fault it was in your opinion, or should’ve chased who in your opinion...etc., the fact remains that you will be hard pressed to find another elite fighter who fought as weak competition during their prime years.

As for me “hating” Roy, you lose all credibility when I say he was an amazing fighter and talent, as well as an ATG and your response is that I hate him. You lose more credibility when you make your point about BHop not being considered better than Roy. Both guys were great in their own ways, and who you prefer is just that: personal preference. Valid cases can be made for both, however, and anyone who can’t see or admit that is irrationally biased.