The Brexit Thread

[Gandalf]

All I have put forward is the notion that it is better to decentralize systems of power rather than concentrate them. I do not think you voted for Brexit based on medicine for your wife at all though, Beanz. You voted for it because you believe, and of course belief means buying into a cult, that something greater should be running your country, something greater than Parliament in fact. I happen to think that is awful. I don't hate Europeans or anyone, but we are very different and that should be respected. It is about British people first and if they want to not be part of an Empire that alters its communities and dictates its laws then you should have the decency to respect that. If you were to ask East Asians if they would like an open border superstate they would consider you a nutter and rightly so. It can ONLY lead to problems as Greece saw when it could not control its currency, as southern Europe knows with record youth unemployment, as many cities of Europe now know with no go zones. Of course the Thai and Vietnamese would flood in and the rich would love it! However, it would be treason, so when you call me dangerous I do wonder as my views are quite straightforward and how things have been done for much of our history and that of others too. Some nations such as here and Eastern Europe also remember occupation and it generally leads to unrest and resentment. That is what Brexit was. A nation state on its singular terms is the only way to regulate and protect the people in a country and for the people in turn to hold the state to account and history tells us this happened again and again and again. As for the medicine nonsense. Do you not recall what you were being told if people even voted for Brexit? The sky did not fall and frankly beyond a short term economic hit the UK will be fine. Europe will be hit too though and a message hammered home. There is more to life than money and that is the only argument remainers have. If you are worried about meds then stock up, but I think you are being hyperbolic and listening to too much propaganda. As for Kirks arguments about the welfare state and NHS. Well, that is hardly helped by unskilled migrants, lazy locals, health tourists and unhealthy locals. It costs a lot to treat preventable diabetes amongst others. The NHS was brought in at a time when people simply did not live so long too. Some of the welfare state likely does need an overhaul. At the end of the day if the Tories screw up then people can vote Labour or something new, but the EU is a trading partner and nothing more beyond that. The sooner people get over their grief and denial the better. Nobody voted to join an Empire and the people voted to leave. That it still has not happened is ridiculous. And as for your family, Beanz, then nothing is stopping them carrying on as normal. I can go and live in a country as long as I can afford it and you can typically extend your visa for a cost. If you are working then you work on a visa. Is that such a big deal? Honestly, the histrionics are so silly.

All you have put forward is the Murdoch script you have been conditioned to repeat from. It is instructive that the most vocal persons in this thread are two people who do not live in either this century or the UK. The Empire has gone and Britain would really benefit from severing it's ties with America and Saudi etc rather than pretending that we are somehow incapable of holding constructive talks with people on our doorstep. You seem to want the word to descend into Mugabe style one party states with enforced eugenics and the replacement in the UK of the Full English Breakfast with a fucking McMuffin and a side order of Covfefe. Read the opening post in this thread and then see how you have spent the last 41 pages sticking up for the Tories, Murdoch, The Barclay Brothers, cunts like Piers Morgan who hacks dead children's phones, Boris , Mogg, a bunch of Insurance salesmen, Bankers, city traders, and Russian Oligarchs. The very people who have used the same neo liberal policies you subscribe to as a weapon to attack the British people with and bring them to their knees. Admit it . You wish you had gone to Eaton, you love the right wing press and have always hated the common working man and the immigrant as you see both as clearly being beneath you. You say it every day in as many words. Every immigrant but you on earth is unskilled in your eyes. You believe in 'Private Law' , drunk on your own privilege you cannot understand why other people are not exactly like you. You are arguing for the removal of any financial regulation and no tax to be paid by the elite. You are firmly on the side of climate change deniers, globalists and organised religion. You sold out wholesale.

If me and Murdoch think alike, then it is pleasing to know that his motives really are as simple as believing in Britain as a nation state like so many other countries around the world function as. However, I do not of course think you are giving me that benefit of the doubt are of course projecting what you would like me to be rather than what I really am. I don't actually see myself advocating anything more than Britain having a Parliament as the supreme body which is chosen by the British people to represent the British people. Is that really so horrifying to you? I have not deviated at all in thinking Brexit was and is the correct thing to do from a purely moral way of thinking. I do not believe British people should have their borders open nor have rules enforced beyond Parliament. It is that damn simple. If it is a script, then I have been reading it a good 3 years or so now and don't actually read much of Murdoch's press. It must be a meeting of the minds.


There is nothing stopping Britain from having a decent relationship with the EU after leaving. However, we do know that the handsome chap at the Lib Dem gathering has said that he would like to make things worse for Britain. Now, that is revealing, right? The people you want to stay with will try and make your life worse if you do not act as their subordinates. I am sorry, but that is not how you create peace or move on and that is why I prefer No Deal. There will be fall out regardless and people know that, but the EU has to understand that it too will face penalties because of the way it has behaved. Now, it can pretend that the UK is like Greece, but it is a whole different ball game and it is really in their interests to reasonable and if they cannot do that, then No Deal it is. You want reason, but if no reason is offered, then you teach the bully the hard way. And they are bullies. Greece was bullied beyond all reason and these are the people you want to be buddies with? Strange.



I am not sure why you think I want a one party state. I actually like a Social Democrat political system where people get to choose from a variety of parties and I would prefer proportional representation as that, like a referendum, is just more democratic. I am a pretty democratic kind of guy. I do not eat a full English breakfast as it is very unhealthy and bacon is full of phosphates that do very serious damage. However, there is no denying that an English breakfast taken in small doses is a very enjoyable thing. I have very little in common with Robert Mugabe.



That list of things is all well and good, but my opening paragraph here really encapsulates my point which you never seem to accept. I am not for instance saying that Morgan is a good person, but he was correct to call out a Labour Party that has ZERO consistency. Corbyn promised to respect the results of the election, he immediately called for the leave to be kicked into motion and here he is arguing for a new referendum. The vote was simple: Stay or Leave. So simplistic it could be a Clash lyric. No confusion to be had. The people want to go. It was democratic, both sides spoke gibberish. However, the people understand what the question meant.



Nope, I do not wish I had gone to Eton. I am too pretty for a place like that. Even when choosing a University for the first time I could have gone to a far better one, but just wanted to be around my friends. I am not all that snobby. I don't think the ordinary working person is beneath me. It is you who spits on the notion of working on a checkout counter considering yourself the arty type. I have done jobs packing vegetables, washing dishes, working in bookies. I was hardly born with a silver spoon and hanging out in torture dungeons with hedge funders. A pretty ordinary person in the great scheme of things, but for sure, I do not approve of open borders and Filipino's going to the West on student visa's and then with some savings then be able to import the rest of their family which happens and then be able to stay indefinitely. One cannot do the same in the other direction and thus I am critical of such things. It doesn't mean I am superior, but it means that people are taking advantage. The Indian can buy property in the UK, but the Brit cannot do so in India and many, many countries. It's not a fair deal and I am critical of that.




I do not argue for the elite not to pay taxes at all. In fact I repeat it over and over and over and you just don't listen. I believe in redistributive taxation systems, but at the same time I would like to see a welfare overhaul and a complete rethinking of the NHS. No privatisation at all, but a charge for self induced situations like getting a stomach pumped and anyone coming in from overseas has to pay at the point of use for say 3 years and no benefits for 3 years including housing benefit etc. It needs to be more disciplined. Thus the rich should pay and that should be used to train local nurses, local plumbers, local people doing local things instead of stealing labor from poor countries.

[Beanz]

Ha!

You literally repost stuff from Murdoch all the time. You are a mainstream media kind of guy, so no need to apologise from your comfy sofa if that is what rocks your tiny little boat, with no room for neither owl or pussycat. You have just backed the closing of Parliament and like the Lib Dem Harridan Swanson you seem to think that what you want is more important than what tax paying British people who actually voted in the referendum want. I have worked in supermarkets on building sites in factories, and purely because i worked hard to be able to do something more with my life, you throw this hissy fit when you realise that going out for a covofe and posting on Saddo is the apex of your creative contribution to the world. People do not have to be one thing or the other, life does not end at 28, no wonder you are so scared of basslines and things like solidarity and community.

I bet you wear reading glasses just like Mugabe and would vote for the Tories in an instant if you had not swanned off to SK and took advantage of the homogenized and often racist far east. You are an economic migrant yourself, not a research scientist or a surgeon mate. It is funny how you can't even see how you have went backwards and degenerated into someone as nearly as gullible as El Kabong, in believing and repeating all the mainstream media nonsense about Corbyn. It is liek you have thrown your hands up and said 'fuck pragmatism and complexity I just want an easy life so I will go along with the Telegraph and what Boris and Nige tell me and The Sun because I don't want to make any effort anymore'

Sad really.
The country is divided. Sorting out Brexit will not end that divide and Corbyn acknowledges that. Life is about compromise not bloody minded nincompoopery. Get a deal, build on what we have and fucking put Boris and Blair and El Kabong etc in the tower of London.

Sorted.

[Gandalf]

My creative life is far from here at Saddo's. Posting on a forum is not creativity either. Not an argument.

If you want compromise then ask the loving EU for compromise. You won't get any until they know you are not playing. Again, look at Greece. There was little compromise. They do not compromise, they look down on you. They admit the intent is to squeeze.

You had the chance of an election and rejected it. That was compromise too. Labour was not interested despite pleading 35 times in 2 years for an election.

My views are what they are and are actually shaped by my own global experiences more than anything else. I observe how other nation states function and they do not operate like the UK has this past 40 years.

I argue for a free Britain so that the alternative movement can grow and hold Parliament to account. Currently Parliament is the problem as all too many are denying their constituents. That is why Labour fears an election. They know it is a changing of the guard.

[Beanz]

My creative life is far from here at Saddo's. Posting on a forum is not creativity either. Not an argument.

If you want compromise then ask the loving EU for compromise. You won't get any until they know you are not playing. Again, look at Greece. There was little compromise. They do not compromise, they look down on you. They admit the intent is to squeeze.

You had the chance of an election and rejected it. That was compromise too. Labour was not interested despite pleading 35 times in 2 years for an election.

My views are what they are and are actually shaped by my own global experiences more than anything else. I observe how other nation states function and they do not operate like the UK has this past 40 years.

I argue for a free Britain so that the alternative movement can grow and hold Parliament to account. Currently Parliament is the problem as all too many are denying their constituents. That is why Labour fears an election. They know it is a changing of the guard.

Your abandonment of Labour under Corbyn is VERY VERY telling. First chance in decades for actual real change and you want to maintain neoliberalism at any cost. More of the same. ALL we hear from you is BLAME THE POOR, MORE AUSTERITY, MAKE WELFARE HARSHER, BLAME THE IMMIGRANTS, BLAME SINGLE MOTHERS, BLAME BLACK PEOPLE, BLAME CORBYN, BLAME ANYONE BUT BANKS, BORIS, MURDOCH, BARCLAYS, FARRAGE, THE ELITE, THE ESTABLISHMENT, ETON, TORIES, UKIP, TOMMY, REBEL MEDIA, TRUMP, AMERICA.

Off to the tower for you too and then the Hague methinks.


Seriously are you not bored with this? I know what you think, you know what I think. Where is everyone?

[Master]

You had the chance of an election and rejected it. That was compromise too. Labour was not interested despite pleading 35 times in 2 years for an election.

That is blatantly untrue. You know Boris only called for an election after he had lost his control of parliament, and to force a no deal Brexit through. It was not to accept the demand of Labour for an election. You are being liberal with the truth.

[El Kabong]

You had the chance of an election and rejected it. That was compromise too. Labour was not interested despite pleading 35 times in 2 years for an election.

That is blatantly untrue. You know Boris only called for an election after he had lost his control of parliament, and to force a no deal Brexit through. It was not to accept the demand of Labour for an election. You are being liberal with the truth.

OK then why was a General Election not held?




Was it SPITE? I'm going to say it was probably spite.

[Master]

The reason why there was no general election was because it was a ruse by Boris.

Boris had just lost a vote that he could not have a No Deal Brexit this handed power back to parliament, he kicked out 21 of his own MP’s in anger and thereby lost even more power. Corbyn led an alliance in opposition and the only reason Boris offered an election was to force a no deal Brexit which would have naturally happened as it would have gone over 31st October. Boris lost that vote too. Now Boris is frantically trying to make a deal but he has no chance and so is running down the clock hoping to annoy the EU to not grant the extension that he does not want to do.

[Beanz]

El Kabong you just swallow everything you are told if it is from the MSM you think are honest it seems, without ever engaging your own judgement. You are very ill informed and confused. Yesterday you were calling Brown a former Labour PM Tory and claiming that Boris sacking any Tory that disagreed with him was actually those Tories selling him out, including his own brother? You are all over the shop.

You don't want a second referendum because you have said for YEARS that you do not respect democracy. You pretend to when it suits you but in reality it means nothing to you. You want the UK to ape you. That is why you already treat us like we have a president which we clearly do not and never should have. That is a ludicrous way to run a country. One Bloke or Woman? Insane and exactly why you are so in the shite right now.

A second referendum with a clear choice between May's negotiated deal (which is only a starting point anyway) and remain is totally democratic. Far, far...far...far more democratic than the original referendum which specifically promised nothing specifically except there being no chance of a no deal chaos. That is why Labour do not want Boris to fuck up the country, just to keep hold of the reigns of power. He was not elected by the British people and so has no right to implement No Deal and shut down Parliament.

The last thing we want is to end up being a colony of fucking Trump's America. We don't want a country as divided and full of hate like your has turned into.

If a second referendum was called I don't think remain would win but it would at least prevent a chaotic departure and keep ties cordial and trade , education , travel etc open between here and Europe our biggest trading and cultural partners. We should never be so stupid as to let a bunch of spoilt toffs and corporate tax avoiders isolate us and make us easy pickings for America. It would be like getting on our knees and begging an Apartheid ers South Africa for a deal. Your Prez and his current Whitehouse are not good people.

[El Kabong]

The reason why there was no general election was because it was a ruse by Boris.

Boris had just lost a vote that he could not have a No Deal Brexit this handed power back to parliament, he kicked out 21 of his own MP’s in anger and thereby lost even more power. Corbyn led an alliance in opposition and the only reason Boris offered an election was to force a no deal Brexit which would have naturally happened as it would have gone over 31st October. Boris lost that vote too. Now Boris is frantically trying to make a deal but he has no chance and so is running down the clock hoping to annoy the EU to not grant the extension that he does not want to do.

This is like ordering pizza in a large group

"I want pepperoni!" ...."I want sausage!"...."I'm vegetarian so I just want veggies!" ....."I'm vegan, I don't want pizza at all I just want something which doesn't have any animal products that is sustainable and then we all need to huddle together to listen to my slam poetry!"


Boris' job is to secure Brexit, that's all. What kind of Brexit deals do these leaders propose? Are they being realistic or spiteful? Are there not Remainers still in Parliament?