The Brexit Thread

[El Kabong]

Boris went around all of Europe's leaders even though there are negotiators that they must go through. There are 27 countries that need to agree.

27 other countries need to agree to ALLOW Britain to implement the will of their people.


Yes indeed, no boot at all

[Master]

Boris went around all of Europe's leaders even though there are negotiators that they must go through. There are 27 countries that need to agree.

27 other countries need to agree to ALLOW Britain to implement the will of their people.


Yes indeed, no boot at all

No, 27 countries need to agree a sensible deal with the UK so that it does not leave in a disorderly fashion.

Boris wants to rush it having no regard to the impact it will have on the country for many years to come.

[Gandalf]

Boris went around all of Europe's leaders even though there are negotiators that they must go through. There are 27 countries that need to agree.

27 other countries need to agree to ALLOW Britain to implement the will of their people.


Yes indeed, no boot at all

No, 27 countries need to agree a sensible deal with the UK so that it does not leave in a disorderly fashion.

Boris wants to rush it having no regard to the impact it will have on the country for many years to come.

The Tories have messed up by basically souping up May's deal. Very weak, but no deal would never pass Parliament. So now both parties are seemingly essentially against the will of the people. If there was FPTP I think Britain would be on the verge of a political revolution.

No deal is the only way for a fresh start and it is being denied. Britain looks to be in a lot of trouble and then the Tories outright banning protests? Not a good look either. The people voted a very long time ago and the referendum has been trashed. That is treason. A nation has the right to its own sovereignty.

[Gandalf]

Ever...no deal would ever pass the 5th Column Parliament.

[Master]

There is a FPTP (First Past the Post) system in the UK did you mean if there was not then there would be a political revolution?

Nobody voted for a no deal, the referendum was about being in or out and if it was out then people said a deal could be made.

Referendums are a bad idea as we vote for politicians to make the decisions. They only gave us a referendum because it was destroying the Conservatives.

[Gandalf]

My naughty......Proportional Representation. I had FPTP on the brain in that moment as I don't like that system.

I don't think the referendum question had anything in its wording about 'a deal'. It was about staying or leaving something the people never voted to be part of and that was it.

I love referendums and would like more of them. MP's have shown they don't give a hoot what the voters think so they are no longer representatives of the people.

I think it is totally valid to have referendums on important topics and certainly on things like national sovereignty.

[Gandalf]

Yes, with no FPTP you would see the collapse of the 2 monopoly parties very quickly in todays climate. You make the people mad and they become unpredictable. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

[Master]

Yes, with no FPTP you would see the collapse of the 2 monopoly parties very quickly in todays climate. You make the people mad and they become unpredictable. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

The First Past The Post system is the best system as you get a stable and secure government any PR system leads to weak and smaller/extreme parties holding too much power.

[Kirkland Laing]

Boris went around all of Europe's leaders even though there are negotiators that they must go through. There are 27 countries that need to agree.

27 other countries need to agree to ALLOW Britain to implement the will of their people.


Yes indeed, no boot at all

Nothing is stopping Britain doing anything. Britain can walk away from the EU tomorrow just by sending a letter. But then they're out of the customs union and the economy falls off a cliff. Britain is getting a divorce from the EU and the other party in this divorce, the EU countries, have a say in this too. If you got a divorce and decided you'd keep the house and assets and would transfer all the joint debt into your wife's name you would not be able to do this. Because there are contract laws and you signed a contract with your wife. Same thing here. Britainhas to negotiate a mutually acceptable resolution with the union it's breaking away from. Even the fucking idiots running the country realise they can't just walk away.

[El Kabong]

Nothing is stopping Britain doing anything. Britain can walk away from the EU tomorrow just by sending a letter. But then they're out of the customs union and the economy falls off a cliff. Britain is getting a divorce from the EU and the other party in this divorce, the EU countries, have a say in this too. If you got a divorce and decided you'd keep the house and assets and would transfer all the joint debt into your wife's name you would not be able to do this. Because there are contract laws and you signed a contract with your wife. Same thing here. Britainhas to negotiate a mutually acceptable resolution with the union it's breaking away from. Even the fucking idiots running the country realise they can't just walk away.

Yeah not like I'd be one to be aware of the perils of secession from a union Kirk. The main question I have is if the union is voluntary or compulsory...joining certainly seemed voluntary, but leaving....leaving seems a bit more involved now doesn't it?

At the end of the day if Germany wants to make a deal Britain will get a deal, if Germany doesn't want to make a deal then there will be no deal. It is the power of that nation in the EU which is why I mentioned Britain being under Germany's boot.....yes, indeed you are and it's not an enviable predicament in which you find yourselves.



And the more Establishment Tories (not sure what else I'd call them) were quite full of themselves and their hubris allowed for Brexit to win at the polls. Had the choice been Remain vs Brexit with a deal vs Brexit deal or not then the vote would have been split and only the mere illusion of choice given to the people. Ironically if the people press for a deal then you're sadly back at that "illusion of a choice" as Germany will offer no deal that anyone will want to accept....that boot there, that's the one you're all under and the entire nation has my empathy as I am absolutely CERTAIN the longer this drags out the more like a redheaded stepchild Britain will be treated by the EU. Politicians are quite vindictive....after a while a no deal Brexit might look like a relief, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.

[Master]

If anyone has a boot it is Ireland and DUP.

[Beanz]

The complicit nature of Modern news media. US Breitbart US MSM despite what its defenders claim, as well as the UK MSM selling the same bigoted nonsense the Prime Minister and his tory rabble repeat. Look how clever it is in that this trope has been adopted by those repeating the same rubbish thinking, believing they have rejected the MSM. Played in such a way that they feel compelled to spread the lie on behalf of the masters they think they are exposing. The stupidly shallow and vacuous cultural marxism trope is another prime example. Xenophobia dressed up as patriotism and common sense.



https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...5LqJ3RFiz_aCB4

[Kirkland Laing]

Nothing is stopping Britain doing anything. Britain can walk away from the EU tomorrow just by sending a letter. But then they're out of the customs union and the economy falls off a cliff. Britain is getting a divorce from the EU and the other party in this divorce, the EU countries, have a say in this too. If you got a divorce and decided you'd keep the house and assets and would transfer all the joint debt into your wife's name you would not be able to do this. Because there are contract laws and you signed a contract with your wife. Same thing here. Britainhas to negotiate a mutually acceptable resolution with the union it's breaking away from. Even the fucking idiots running the country realise they can't just walk away.

Yeah not like I'd be one to be aware of the perils of secession from a union Kirk. The main question I have is if the union is voluntary or compulsory...joining certainly seemed voluntary, but leaving....leaving seems a bit more involved now doesn't it?

At the end of the day if Germany wants to make a deal Britain will get a deal, if Germany doesn't want to make a deal then there will be no deal. It is the power of that nation in the EU which is why I mentioned Britain being under Germany's boot.....yes, indeed you are and it's not an enviable predicament in which you find yourselves.



And the more Establishment Tories (not sure what else I'd call them) were quite full of themselves and their hubris allowed for Brexit to win at the polls. Had the choice been Remain vs Brexit with a deal vs Brexit deal or not then the vote would have been split and only the mere illusion of choice given to the people. Ironically if the people press for a deal then you're sadly back at that "illusion of a choice" as Germany will offer no deal that anyone will want to accept....that boot there, that's the one you're all under and the entire nation has my empathy as I am absolutely CERTAIN the longer this drags out the more like a redheaded stepchild Britain will be treated by the EU. Politicians are quite vindictive....after a while a no deal Brexit might look like a relief, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.

Britain is not starting a war here Lyle, it's nothing like the treasonous actions of the confederate states. What they are doing is attempting to untangle half a century of trade, employment, contractual and various other types of laws and regulations, financial services and banking regulations, criminal/policing arrangements, recirocal arrangements for healthcare and benefits for British citizens living in the EU and vice versa and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Britain isn't negotiating with Germany, they're negotiating with the EU. Like I already explained the main point of contention so far has been Irish demands over the all-Ireland economy. The EU has supported Ireland in this. By pooling their sovereignty with twenty six other countries, by "giving up control", Ireland has emerged with total victory in a dispute with Britain for the first time in history. Once agin Lyle your claim is about divorce proceedings, you still haven't produced any evidence to show that Britain was somehow under Germany's boot when they were in the EU. We kept our own currency, our financial services industry dominated Europe leaving Frankfurt with crumbs and our commissioner ran the financial sercies laws to keep it that way. This will change dramatically when we leave. Now we'll see Frankfurt and Paris go after our financial services, ten percent of our economy.

Whether Britain leaves on WTO terms or with eventual agreement on these issues these issues still need to be resolved. It would be much easier to do this than to leave on WTO terms. Presently only Serbia, Algeria and North Korea trade with the rest of the world on WTO terms. Every other nation has a varying amount of recirocal, bilateral, trilateral, multilateral agreemtns with other countries. Unless you're a cesspit of corruption or a totalitarian state then you have no option but to trade a little sovereignty for access to foreign markets and mutually beneficial deals with other countries.

Britain is the world's fifth largest economy and has an incredibly complex array of laws and treaties with other nations which have all been subsumed by EU membership, something that has been tremendously beneficial for Britain -- just see how well negotiations go with one country lined up against twenty seven or when Britain tries to make trade agreements elsewhere. As an example a starting point for a trade agreement with Turkey would be free movement of ninety million Turks into Britain.

Walking away from every single agreement that Britain has made in the modern era, which is what would happen if they leave on WTO terms , would be absolutely catastrophic for the British economy. As it is they'll spend up to a decade trying to untangle from the EU and any resultant deal will make the country far worse off economically than staying in would have. Just wait and see what a world historic clusterfuck this turns into.

[El Kabong]

Britain is not starting a war here Lyle, it's nothing like the treasonous actions of the confederate states.

Well war in situations like this is never the goal, it's never the INTENT to just start a war. There are a lot of things at stake economic and political power, and so yeah while at present it's not bellicose, there's no telling where this leads if the will of the people keeps being denied. Was World War 1 a desired event? Was World War 2 sought out by all parties? Were the Napoleonic Wars something everyone was clamoring for? War is not typically the best first option in situations like this, but given the stakes at play.....I wouldn't be shocked at increasing political violence because just looking at it the optics are not the best regardless of the reporting right now you seem to have the will of the British people (Remoaners excluded) vs the greed for money and power from the EU. And as with certain historical events, the EU seeks to be punitive with Britain....The EU wishes to bring Britain to heel one way or the other and I'm just going to take a wild guess that that kind of attitude won't sit well with the Brits.......or hell what do I know maybe the British people have changed and are more open to accept Europeans as their masters.


But hey, I'm not British, go ahead have another referendum, push Remain yet again, try and split the Brexit vote to have a surefire win...knock yourselves out. See what comes from your tone deaf attitudes. I am certain you'll not only get your way, but you'll achieve a lasting peace in the process.


I'm sure you could fill several libraries with what you think you know about what caused the secession of Confederate states....and as per usual you'd be wrong in the most arrogant of ways.

[Kirkland Laing]

Britain is not starting a war here Lyle, it's nothing like the treasonous actions of the confederate states.

Well war in situations like this is never the goal, it's never the INTENT to just start a war. There are a lot of things at stake economic and political power, and so yeah while at present it's not bellicose, there's no telling where this leads if the will of the people keeps being denied. Was World War 1 a desired event? Was World War 2 sought out by all parties? Were the Napoleonic Wars something everyone was clamoring for? War is not typically the best first option in situations like this, but given the stakes at play.....I wouldn't be shocked at increasing political violence because just looking at it the optics are not the best regardless of the reporting right now you seem to have the will of the British people (Remoaners excluded) vs the greed for money and power from the EU. And as with certain historical events, the EU seeks to be punitive with Britain....The EU wishes to bring Britain to heel one way or the other and I'm just going to take a wild guess that that kind of attitude won't sit well with the Brits.......or hell what do I know maybe the British people have changed and are more open to accept Europeans as their masters.


But hey, I'm not British, go ahead have another referendum, push Remain yet again, try and split the Brexit vote to have a surefire win...knock yourselves out. See what comes from your tone deaf attitudes. I am certain you'll not only get your way, but you'll achieve a lasting peace in the process.


I'm sure you could fill several libraries with what you think you know about what caused the secession of Confederate states....and as per usual you'd be wrong in the most arrogant of ways.

There's not going to be a war Lyle, there's going to be a very nasty divorce and the idiots who lied to the British public during the referendum campaign ("we hold all the cards" when it comes to negotitating a free trade agreement, we'll be able to negotiate one before we leave the EU etc etc etc etc) will be given a decade long arsekicking by the EU twenty seven. Britain will get absolutely scalped in the negotiations. The British government will become less popular than the clap when the public eventually cotton on to the extent that they've been bullshitted. Just wait till the EU start picking off all the best businesses in Britain.

All you fucking weird southerners have these permanent paraniod ideas about wars starting and feelings of submissiveness/inadequacy whatever it is. Everything comes down to either there's going to be a war or you're going to be dominated by somebody much stronger than you are. You still can't make a single coherent argument about how Britain was in any way subjugated or dominated by Germany when a member of the EU, you just keep rambling on about domination and war. Fucking weirdo.

And I don't have to speculate why the traitor states seceeded Lyle, I can read their own words at the time.Just one of endless examples:


A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp