Is it wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality?

[TitoFan]

I honestly don't give a rat's ass about impeachment. It's still in bad taste, just like everything else that comes out of that big mouth coupled with that feeble brain.

But....... I guess it IS wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality.

[Fatboxingfan]

But....... I guess it IS wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality.

No no I disagree with that. In fact it is not wrong at all. It is your opinion just like we all have our own and no opinion can be wrong because an opinion by definition is a subjective call.

[El Kabong]

I honestly don't give a rat's ass about impeachment. It's still in bad taste, just like everything else that comes out of that big mouth coupled with that feeble brain.

But....... I guess it IS wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality.

I don't think so. I just think absence makes the heart grow fonder. You think THIS "Speaking ill of the dead" is bad....John Adams called Alexander Hamilton "The bastard brat of a scotch pedler", Franklin Pierce was called "pimp of the White House", John Quincy Adams called Andrew Jackson's wife an "adulteress" which are actually quite brave words considering Richard Lawrence, who attempted to assassinate President Jackson had 2 pistols misfire (thanks to the damp weather) and Jackson summarily bludgeoned him with his cane. Thomas Jefferson hired a journalist who called John Adams "hermaphriditic", a journalist called Grover Cleveland a "moral leper". And it's not just Americans that have done this...Benjamin Disraeli said of Robert Peel "The right honorable gentleman's smile was like the silver plate on a coffin", Disraeli said of William Ewart Gladstone "If Gladstone fell into the Thames, that would be a misfortune. If anyone were to pull him out, I suppose that would be a calamity". Churchill said of Lloyd George "He would make a drum out of the skin of his own mother in order to sound his own praises"...sooo yeah there's that.

I think this "Well back in the day, leaders had couth and class" is a nice sentiment, but it's not the truth. If history should teach us anything it's that there's no "The good old days" there's no "Things were more kind then" there's no "people were gentler and held themselves to a higher standard" if anything people were more brutal back then.


But that's MY take....was Trump wrong for bringing up Dingell? Probably, but no more wrong than Dingell's widow voting for impeachment.....and THAT picture will become more clear in the coming months.

[Fatboxingfan]

@TitoFan you gave an example of somebody showing up at a funeral to roast the deceased. it is quite similar to your bringing up the fact that Trump said something about the deceased husband in a derogatory manner. It's not that examples are not acceptable it's that the example you chose is so practically identical to Trump's comment on the deceased that it looked like you were claiming that Trump did it at the guys funeral itself!

Sheesh, you can be a tough one sometimes.

[walrus]

I honestly don't give a rat's ass about impeachment. It's still in bad taste, just like everything else that comes out of that big mouth coupled with that feeble brain.

But....... I guess it IS wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality.

I don't think so. I just think absence makes the heart grow fonder. You think THIS "Speaking ill of the dead" is bad....John Adams called Alexander Hamilton "The bastard brat of a scotch pedler", Franklin Pierce was called "pimp of the White House", John Quincy Adams called Andrew Jackson's wife an "adulteress" which are actually quite brave words considering Richard Lawrence, who attempted to assassinate President Jackson had 2 pistols misfire (thanks to the damp weather) and Jackson summarily bludgeoned him with his cane. Thomas Jefferson hired a journalist who called John Adams "hermaphriditic", a journalist called Grover Cleveland a "moral leper". And it's not just Americans that have done this...Benjamin Disraeli said of Robert Peel "The right honorable gentleman's smile was like the silver plate on a coffin", Disraeli said of William Ewart Gladstone "If Gladstone fell into the Thames, that would be a misfortune. If anyone were to pull him out, I suppose that would be a calamity". Churchill said of Lloyd George "He would make a drum out of the skin of his own mother in order to sound his own praises"...sooo yeah there's that.

I think this "Well back in the day, leaders had couth and class" is a nice sentiment, but it's not the truth. If history should teach us anything it's that there's no "The good old days" there's no "Things were more kind then" there's no "people were gentler and held themselves to a higher standard" if anything people were more brutal back then.


But that's MY take....was Trump wrong for bringing up Dingell? Probably, but no more wrong than Dingell's widow voting for impeachment.....and THAT picture will become more clear in the coming months.

Well that’s all I was saying. The world of politics has been scummy for a long time. If we are going to compare let’s do it honestly.

[TitoFan]

You know guys, the fact that we even have to be discussing this is telling of the state of affairs today, TBH.

We can sit here all day and go back and forth about the appropriateness or lack thereof of Trump poking fun at a dead former Congressman.

We can sit here all day and dredge up sins of past Presidents and I'm sure there's plenty.

But nothing will ever convince me that it's ok to give Trump a pass on everything that comes out of his mouth (or Twitter), just because the economy happens to be doing well at the moment.

Me..... I want a little more than that from my President. I want someone I can truly respect.... not fear.

Trump leads by fear (see the images on the OP of the thread).

Unfortunately, flip-flopper Republicans like Lindsey Graham (who I've never liked from the get-go) actually drive the point home of what people hate in politicians by turning 180° on how he used to talk before.

My point is crystal clear.

Whether anyone agrees or not is beside the point.

[Fatboxingfan]

I think your point is that for some reason Trump supporters are more blind to the things he does wrong than past supporters of past presidents? For my part even if the economy were not doing so good I would still support pretty much everything he says. To be honest if I think back to before he was elected right up until today December 20th 2019 I don't think there's a single thing that he has said that I have any problem with. Grab them by the pussy? come on it's men's horseshit talk we all did it at one point or another. Maybe he's looking up instead of down? Implying maybe he's in hell instead of heaven? What's so wrong about that? Is it any worse than people severing the head of a trump doll with fake dripping blood? Everybody does this stuff. Was it so bad when he said send them back? When referring to ilhan Omar and talib? Why is that so bad? it's like telling a white American that if he doesn't like the United States to Love it or leave it. You can't really say send him back to somebody like that because he's been here for 300 years and nobody really knows what damn country he's from anymore anyway he's just a white Anglo-Saxon mutt. But we all know clearly that ilhan Omar is a recent arrival from Somalia for example.

I can't think of a damn thing he said that really riled me up too much at all to be honest.

I fully understand that you are exasperated and disgusted by things you're hearing from the president that you feel are beneath the dignity of the office of President and I fully appreciate and accept your opinion on that.

[El Kabong]

You know guys, the fact that we even have to be discussing this is telling of the state of affairs today, TBH.

we don't actually HAVE to discuss it. The media would like to focus on all the negatives of Trump without ever understanding why people vote for him...it does him a disservice. Added to which prior to his run for office, buffoonish though he may have been considered, on the whole, an affable guy, a guy seemingly appreciated by most and now we know that had caveats to it. As long as he stayed in his lane and out of politics unless he was willing to play with the swamp creatures.

We can sit here all day and go back and forth about the appropriateness or lack thereof of Trump poking fun at a dead former Congressman.

Dingell never said anything nice about Trump. Trump gave him the greatest posthumous honors possible, his widow was very gracious for that...but not so gracious that she didn't vote to impeach Trump on BULLSHIT charges and the more that comes out the more bullshit those charges are going to look.

There is a reason Trump was upset. We'll soon find out.

We can sit here all day and dredge up sins of past Presidents and I'm sure there's plenty.

But nothing will ever convince me that it's ok to give Trump a pass on everything that comes out of his mouth (or Twitter), just because the economy happens to be doing well at the moment.

You were the one calling for a return to the ways of old, the halcyon days of a bygone era where everyone played nice. Let me tell you, THOSE days, those are for when Democrats are in office and a guy in the middle of nowhere flyover country dresses up like the President at a rodeo (as he had done several times before) gets fire for daring impugn the God Emperor Obama ....THAT is where we used to be and where we are now is people testifying in front of Congress openly talking shit about the President's barely teenage son, and then we've got movie stars calling for assassinations and blowing up the White House.

Me..... I want a little more than that from my President. I want someone I can truly respect.... not fear.

Trump leads by fear (see the images on the OP of the thread).

The people (politicians and deep staters) who actually literally FEAR Trump, NEED to and DESERVE to.

You don't FEAR him. You think he's crass, uncouth, buffoonish. If you do fear him, why?

Unfortunately, flip-flopper Republicans like Lindsey Graham (who I've never liked from the get-go) actually drive the point home of what people hate in politicians by turning 180° on how he used to talk before.

My point is crystal clear.

Whether anyone agrees or not is beside the point.

I understand people who aren't paying attention to what I'm paying attention to are seeing the surface of what's happening and yeah the surface can get a bit choppy. Trump doesn't back down, he doesn't pull his punches....look what happened to those who HAVE backed down, who HAVE pulled punches....kindness is mistaken for weakness. George W. Bush got run over while in office, like him, hate him, feel indifferent about him, he allowed the Democrats to control the narrative and they ran with it, called him an idiot every chance they got, subverted his administration all the time...The media is on the side of the Democrats (mostly, sometimes Establishment Republicans when it suits them) and they didn't let anything get said of Obama, they didn't hound him with "serious questions" they lobbed softballs at him....Trump is vicious because he has to be, nobody is looking after Trump but Trump, he's smart to punch back because they can dish it out but they can't take it coming back at them.

I'm not responding to argue I'm responding to inform on how I a Trump supporter see things and you can take or leave them, I don't mind either way, I just wanted to explain my views.

[TitoFan]

You know guys, the fact that we even have to be discussing this is telling of the state of affairs today, TBH.

we don't actually HAVE to discuss it. The media would like to focus on all the negatives of Trump without ever understanding why people vote for him...it does him a disservice. Added to which prior to his run for office, buffoonish though he may have been considered, on the whole, an affable guy, a guy seemingly appreciated by most and now we know that had caveats to it. As long as he stayed in his lane and out of politics unless he was willing to play with the swamp creatures.

But see... it's not just the media, Lyle. It's what I've said constantly. When Trump is right there in full, living color... speaking and saying the things he says.... he needs no help from the media to get people to hate him. Also, just because the media puts up with Trump the real estate mogul and Celebrity Apprentice dude.... it honestly doesn't put anyone under any obligation to like the idea of Trump as President.

We can sit here all day and go back and forth about the appropriateness or lack thereof of Trump poking fun at a dead former Congressman.

Dingell never said anything nice about Trump. Trump gave him the greatest posthumous honors possible, his widow was very gracious for that...but not so gracious that she didn't vote to impeach Trump on BULLSHIT charges and the more that comes out the more bullshit those charges are going to look.

There is a reason Trump was upset. We'll soon find out.

You can justify Trump being an ass about a dead guy if you want to, bringing up how his wife voted on impeachment. I won't give him a pass for it. He's the POTUS. He should aim his spitballs in the correct direction, and have better common sense than he constantly exhibits (none). He's mad at Mrs. Dingell? Then FFS talk bad about her. Down go the low (gutter) road and bring up dead people. Not a good look for anyone, much less a President. People are pretty numb to that kind of shit from Trump by now, though.

We can sit here all day and dredge up sins of past Presidents and I'm sure there's plenty.

But nothing will ever convince me that it's ok to give Trump a pass on everything that comes out of his mouth (or Twitter), just because the economy happens to be doing well at the moment.

You were the one calling for a return to the ways of old, the halcyon days of a bygone era where everyone played nice. Let me tell you, THOSE days, those are for when Democrats are in office and a guy in the middle of nowhere flyover country dresses up like the President at a rodeo (as he had done several times before) gets fire for daring impugn the God Emperor Obama ....THAT is where we used to be and where we are now is people testifying in front of Congress openly talking shit about the President's barely teenage son, and then we've got movie stars calling for assassinations and blowing up the White House.

Does anyone actually CARE what Madonna thinks, FFS? Not me. I'm intelligent enough to file Madonna's comments in the proper "file cabinet"..... the toilet. I've consistently railed against movie stars and entertainers talking about stuff they know little to nothing about.

Me..... I want a little more than that from my President. I want someone I can truly respect.... not fear.

Trump leads by fear (see the images on the OP of the thread).

The people (politicians and deep staters) who actually literally FEAR Trump, NEED to and DESERVE to.

You don't FEAR him. You think he's crass, uncouth, buffoonish. If you do fear him, why?

Some good people fear Trump. You may not know or acknowledge it... but it's true. Waaayyy too many people. People are scared shitless of Trump. Why? Because like the piece of shit he is..... he turns his hate and his revenge on those who DARE disagree with him on ANYTHING. That....... is not the mark of a true leader. That is a characteristic of a dictator. If he could be a dictator, he'd be more than happy with the role. To claim only people who "deserve to" fear Trump is, I'm afraid, not being very connected with reality. And no..... I don't fear Trump. I just hate his guts as a man.

Unfortunately, flip-flopper Republicans like Lindsey Graham (who I've never liked from the get-go) actually drive the point home of what people hate in politicians by turning 180° on how he used to talk before.

My point is crystal clear.

Whether anyone agrees or not is beside the point.

I understand people who aren't paying attention to what I'm paying attention to are seeing the surface of what's happening and yeah the surface can get a bit choppy. Trump doesn't back down, he doesn't pull his punches....look what happened to those who HAVE backed down, who HAVE pulled punches....kindness is mistaken for weakness. George W. Bush got run over while in office, like him, hate him, feel indifferent about him, he allowed the Democrats to control the narrative and they ran with it, called him an idiot every chance they got, subverted his administration all the time...The media is on the side of the Democrats (mostly, sometimes Establishment Republicans when it suits them) and they didn't let anything get said of Obama, they didn't hound him with "serious questions" they lobbed softballs at him....Trump is vicious because he has to be, nobody is looking after Trump but Trump, he's smart to punch back because they can dish it out but they can't take it coming back at them.

I'm not responding to argue I'm responding to inform on how I a Trump supporter see things and you can take or leave them, I don't mind either way, I just wanted to explain my views.

How the media responds to President is something I'm not qualified to argue. But Bush? He deserved a lot of the shit he got. Only Bush could fritter away the free points he got after 9/11..... and it didn't even take that long. Bush WAS an idiot in many ways, and unfortunately is part of that slide we're still on regarding the qualities of a POTUS. Yes..... that involves Obama too. Surprised? You shouldn't be. I'm not a Democrat, hence have no political axe to grind. Obama made all kinds of mistakes. If the press treated him with kid gloves... again... it's something I don't feel prepared to argue. BTW..... I'm not too fond of the press these days, either.

I appreciate you expressing your views, and as usual..... we can disagree vehemently on something and still maintain the healthy respect I feel is of paramount importance on any topic.