End of year awards 2019

[Alpha]

Tito is a little harsh with the protected stuff and weak opponents that Alvarez has fought. Yea there are some cupcakes in there, but he has fought a good number of ranked fighters in or around there prime.

He gets credit from me for taking those fights like Trout who was unbeaten and highly rated when they fought, and he then went straight into the Mayweather fight. He arguably lost both those fights, so his record could easily have 2 losses at that point.

He was abysmal against Mayweather Jr, but he took on the best challenge possible. Another loss.

Angulo and Lara did come back to back, and after their fight I can give Alvarez a pass for taking Angulo first, but the Lara fight is another one that could easily be another loss.

Kirkland, Cotto, Khan, Smith and Chavez Jr, only Cotto is worth mentioning, and he is a decent name to have on Alvarez’ record, albeit a little overdone and long in the tooth.

He faced Golovkin twice but could have lost both fights, so his record after those fights could have 6 losses.

Fielding was a worthless fight and did nothing to enhance his record.

I think Jacobs was another excellent opponent and Alvarez defeated him clearer than both Golovkin and Derevyanchenko came close to doing.

Kovalev was on the wrong side of the slope and I am disappointed with the rehydration clause that was kept secret until last minute, so that dampens the victory for me, although I must admit had one of the other Light-Heavyweight Champs signed to fight Kovalev I probably would have been all for it, but we wouldn’t have had a rehydration clause hanging over a unification.

So, Alvarez has definitely fought good opposition and that’s where he gets all the credit from me, but without the favourable calls and advantages he could have already lost 6 times, and if some of those losses had occurred, he may not have been in the position he found himself in, where his team was able to call the shots, this may have lead to further loses, we’ll never know.

Any fighter that tests positive for PEDs always gets a black mark next to their name for me. But I can only really go on this fights or tests they failed. I think most top athletes are on some kind of gear these days and until there are consistent tests and punishments handed out things will never improve.

[powerpuncher]

Tito is a little harsh with the protected stuff and weak opponents that Alvarez has fought. Yea there are some cupcakes in there, but he has fought a good number of ranked fighters in or around there prime.

He gets credit from me for taking those fights like Trout who was unbeaten and highly rated when they fought, and he then went straight into the Mayweather fight. He arguably lost both those fights, so his record could easily have 2 losses at that point.

He was abysmal against Mayweather Jr, but he took on the best challenge possible. Another loss.

Angulo and Lara did come back to back, and after their fight I can give Alvarez a pass for taking Angulo first, but the Lara fight is another one that could easily be another loss.

Kirkland, Cotto, Khan, Smith and Chavez Jr, only Cotto is worth mentioning, and he is a decent name to have on Alvarez’ record, albeit a little overdone and long in the tooth.

He faced Golovkin twice but could have lost both fights, so his record after those fights could have 6 losses.

Fielding was a worthless fight and did nothing to enhance his record.

I think Jacobs was another excellent opponent and Alvarez defeated him clearer than both Golovkin and Derevyanchenko came close to doing.

Kovalev was on the wrong side of the slope and I am disappointed with the rehydration clause that was kept secret until last minute, so that dampens the victory for me, although I must admit had one of the other Light-Heavyweight Champs signed to fight Kovalev I probably would have been all for it, but we wouldn’t have had a rehydration clause hanging over a unification.

So, Alvarez has definitely fought good opposition and that’s where he gets all the credit from me, but without the favourable calls and advantages he could have already lost 6 times, and if some of those losses had occurred, he may not have been in the position he found himself in, where his team was able to call the shots, this may have lead to further loses, we’ll never know.

Any fighter that tests positive for PEDs always gets a black mark next to their name for me. But I can only really go on this fights or tests they failed. I think most top athletes are on some kind of gear these days and until there are consistent tests and punishments handed out things will never improve.

I agree. He does have good names on his record, but you need to know the background of some of those wins. I give him the most credit for the Jacobs win because it’s his one decisive win against a good opponent. Because of his fame, he has been forced to take certain fights, but they are always on his time and his terms.

[TitoFan]

Tito is a little harsh with the protected stuff and weak opponents that Alvarez has fought. Yea there are some cupcakes in there, but he has fought a good number of ranked fighters in or around there prime.

He gets credit from me for taking those fights like Trout who was unbeaten and highly rated when they fought, and he then went straight into the Mayweather fight. He arguably lost both those fights, so his record could easily have 2 losses at that point.

He was abysmal against Mayweather Jr, but he took on the best challenge possible. Another loss.

Angulo and Lara did come back to back, and after their fight I can give Alvarez a pass for taking Angulo first, but the Lara fight is another one that could easily be another loss.

Kirkland, Cotto, Khan, Smith and Chavez Jr, only Cotto is worth mentioning, and he is a decent name to have on Alvarez’ record, albeit a little overdone and long in the tooth.

He faced Golovkin twice but could have lost both fights, so his record after those fights could have 6 losses.

Fielding was a worthless fight and did nothing to enhance his record.

I think Jacobs was another excellent opponent and Alvarez defeated him clearer than both Golovkin and Derevyanchenko came close to doing.

Kovalev was on the wrong side of the slope and I am disappointed with the rehydration clause that was kept secret until last minute, so that dampens the victory for me, although I must admit had one of the other Light-Heavyweight Champs signed to fight Kovalev I probably would have been all for it, but we wouldn’t have had a rehydration clause hanging over a unification.

So, Alvarez has definitely fought good opposition and that’s where he gets all the credit from me, but without the favourable calls and advantages he could have already lost 6 times, and if some of those losses had occurred, he may not have been in the position he found himself in, where his team was able to call the shots, this may have lead to further loses, we’ll never know.

Any fighter that tests positive for PEDs always gets a black mark next to their name for me. But I can only really go on this fights or tests they failed. I think most top athletes are on some kind of gear these days and until there are consistent tests and punishments handed out things will never improve.

I agree. He does have good names on his record, but you need to know the background of some of those wins. I give him the most credit for the Jacobs win because it’s his one decisive win against a good opponent. Because of his fame, he has been forced to take certain fights, but they are always on his time and his terms.

I give him credit for some fights also. But it's the whole package when you view it as a whole, combined with the way this package is swallowed by some, including many casuals. If you take the fights individually, sure.... there's little to criticize about an opponent like Trout at the time. Jacobs is another example. But other than that, he's been a wildly successful boxing marketing experiment.... with everything around him conspiring in his favor.

The start of his career cannot be denied. It was manufactured and even fellow countryman JCC Sr. had quite a bit of criticism about that. Unlike other fighters, who plow ahead undefeated records be damned (and get no favors from anybody)..... Canelo's greatness was preordained from the very beginning.

It's THIS dog and pony show that I object to.

Sometimes it's not so much the fighter, as it is everything else around him. What it does is magnify any criticism I may have of Canelo himself.

Human nature.

[TitoFan]

Difference between me and others is... some choose to look only at individual fights. See? He fought so-and-so. See? He fought this other so-and-so. Me? I look at the entire career. It's not just Canelo and it's not just boxing. I would have the same abhorrence toward ANY "manufactured" career built from picking and choosing and carefully primping up an image for the sake of image's sake. Whether that means bending/breaking the rules.... buying judges.... playing ridiculous games with weight.....and blatantly avoiding certain fighters. But most of all...... taking NO risk.

I may not be in the majority, but I'm sure I'm not alone on that "island."

[TIC]

Tito is a little harsh with the protected stuff and weak opponents that Alvarez has fought. Yea there are some cupcakes in there, but he has fought a good number of ranked fighters in or around there prime.

He gets credit from me for taking those fights like Trout who was unbeaten and highly rated when they fought, and he then went straight into the Mayweather fight. He arguably lost both those fights, so his record could easily have 2 losses at that point.

He was abysmal against Mayweather Jr, but he took on the best challenge possible. Another loss.

Angulo and Lara did come back to back, and after their fight I can give Alvarez a pass for taking Angulo first, but the Lara fight is another one that could easily be another loss.

Kirkland, Cotto, Khan, Smith and Chavez Jr, only Cotto is worth mentioning, and he is a decent name to have on Alvarez’ record, albeit a little overdone and long in the tooth.

He faced Golovkin twice but could have lost both fights, so his record after those fights could have 6 losses.

Fielding was a worthless fight and did nothing to enhance his record.

I think Jacobs was another excellent opponent and Alvarez defeated him clearer than both Golovkin and Derevyanchenko came close to doing.

Kovalev was on the wrong side of the slope and I am disappointed with the rehydration clause that was kept secret until last minute, so that dampens the victory for me, although I must admit had one of the other Light-Heavyweight Champs signed to fight Kovalev I probably would have been all for it, but we wouldn’t have had a rehydration clause hanging over a unification.

So, Alvarez has definitely fought good opposition and that’s where he gets all the credit from me, but without the favourable calls and advantages he could have already lost 6 times, and if some of those losses had occurred, he may not have been in the position he found himself in, where his team was able to call the shots, this may have lead to further loses, we’ll never know.

Any fighter that tests positive for PEDs always gets a black mark next to their name for me. But I can only really go on this fights or tests they failed. I think most top athletes are on some kind of gear these days and until there are consistent tests and punishments handed out things will never improve.

I agree. He does have good names on his record, but you need to know the background of some of those wins. I give him the most credit for the Jacobs win because it’s his one decisive win against a good opponent. Because of his fame, he has been forced to take certain fights, but they are always on his time and his terms.

I give him credit for some fights also. But it's the whole package when you view it as a whole, combined with the way this package is swallowed by some, including many casuals. If you take the fights individually, sure.... there's little to criticize about an opponent like Trout at the time. Jacobs is another example. But other than that, he's been a wildly successful boxing marketing experiment.... with everything around him conspiring in his favor.

The start of his career cannot be denied. It was manufactured and even fellow countryman JCC Sr. had quite a bit of criticism about that. Unlike other fighters, who plow ahead undefeated records be damned (and get no favors from anybody)..... Canelo's greatness was preordained from the very beginning.

It's THIS dog and pony show that I object to.

Sometimes it's not so much the fighter, as it is everything else around him. What it does is magnify any criticism I may have of Canelo himself.

Human nature.

other than trout and jacobs? what about floyd? i guess taking on the best in the sport is not enough of a risk for you. lara? what about ggg? when was he too old? the first or second fight? sergiy d shouldn't have fought such a shot fighter. and artur, bivol or gvozdyk probably didn't want to fight a shot kov to unify

canelo turned pro young, so many of his eary fights were development. not many modern careers can be like loma or usyk. i agree that a fighter fast tracked is very impressive, but some get derailed. some of canelo's fights could have gone either way, i thought he lost the first ggg fight, but he is fighting these top fighters. this is not ballroom dancing. a fighter risks his life everytime he steps in the ring. and there is no dening that canelo has one of the best current records for fighting highly rated fighters around the weight. i have stated that i understand some of your frustrations and also agree with some. but i really enjoy most what canelo is doing

Difference between me and others is... some choose to look only at individual fights. See? He fought so-and-so. See? He fought this other so-and-so. Me? I look at the entire career. It's not just Canelo and it's not just boxing. I would have the same abhorrence toward ANY "manufactured" career built from picking and choosing and carefully primping up an image for the sake of image's sake. Whether that means bending/breaking the rules.... buying judges.... playing ridiculous games with weight.....and blatantly avoiding certain fighters. But most of all...... taking NO risk.

I may not be in the majority, but I'm sure I'm not alone on that "island."

look at a guy like mikey garcia, he had almost thirty fights before fighting orlando, nobody of any real note. no one really focuses on wht he did early in his career, mainly on what he has been doing since stepping up his competition. how many fights did it take wilder to fight a live body? all modern fighters pick and choose. and many bend and break the rules. bad decisions are a part of boxing. catchweights have been common through boxings history, cotto had a few and was quoted saying "If the guy doesn't want to go (to the catchweight), they can feel free to look in other directions (for opponents)." we can pick apart every fighter and find fighters that they are claimed to have avoided. canelo has taken risks uch as trout, floyd, lara, ggg, jacobs and he fought kov at lightheavyweight before artur, bivol or gvozdyk

[TitoFan]

What about Floyd?? A completely undersized man who had a snowball's chance in hell of knocking Canelo out. Fits Canelo's model opponent to a Tee. So no.... no risk there. Sure... he was guaranteed to lose. No way he's EVER been in the same galaxy as Floyd. I knew that before the fight. So did anyone else who knows a little something about boxing. But let's not be naive here. Calling out Floyd was the national past-time among fighters back then. It was their way of saying, "hey! look at me! I belong here!" Well..... in Canelo's case he obviously didn't. In fact, Canelo's total and embarrassing shutout at the hands of Floyd were reminiscent of another sham which was the JCC Jr. - Sergio Martinez fight. Everybody and their brother knew Sergio would NEVER knock out Junior ('cause Junior outweighed him by 20-30 pounds).... so ol' Melon Head only had to stalk Martinez for 12 rounds hoping for a lucky shot. He got one, too. Luckily Sergio survived to the final bell, and the sham was over. It's pretty cool when you can fight someone whose punch is like a mosquito bite to you.... so you can recklessly stalk the man for the entire fight. THAT..... was Canelo against Floyd. I think the closest Canelo got to connecting was a couple of feet.

You wanna talk about GGG?? You sure you want to do this? Because I distinctly remember GGG calling out Canelo early on, only to have Canelo hide behind Oscar's skirt (the fishnets were always appropriate, BTW) and claim he wasn't a full-fledged middleweight. Which us non-blind boxing fans knew to be total bullshit. Canelo was totally a middleweight. But no.... he wanted to drag GGG down to 154 and play his weight games with him. Only to turn around and take a fight against that mummy, Melon Head. A fight made at 165 pounds. How do you explain THAT?? Take your time. If Canelo hadn't ducked GGG early on, the fight would have been made long before it was actually made.

Yes, Canelo turned pro very young. But that's no excuse to build up a bogus pro record fattened with cab drivers and bartenders. Canelo was 30-0 and being treated like a mega-star already and had yet to fight anyone with a pulse. You might not have a problem with that, but I do.

You mentioned Wilder. Feel free to go back through some of posts from earlier years when Wilder was fighting nobodies. There were few louder critics of Wilder than me. Since then he's taking more risks.

Your last sentence is one I can agree with.

"i have stated that i understand some of your frustrations and also agree with some. but i really enjoy most what canelo is doing"

It's an ok middle ground. It's not far fetched to enjoy watching Canelo fight. He's an action fighter, and you'll always get your money's worth. But IMO he's not worthy of the Hollywood hype machine they've built around him.

[TIC]

What about Floyd?? A completely undersized man who had a snowball's chance in hell of knocking Canelo out. Fits Canelo's model opponent to a Tee. So no.... no risk there. Sure... he was guaranteed to lose. No way he's EVER been in the same galaxy as Floyd. I knew that before the fight. So did anyone else who knows a little something about boxing. But let's not be naive here. Calling out Floyd was the national past-time among fighters back then. It was their way of saying, "hey! look at me! I belong here!" Well..... in Canelo's case he obviously didn't. In fact, Canelo's total and embarrassing shutout at the hands of Floyd were reminiscent of another sham which was the JCC Jr. - Sergio Martinez fight. Everybody and their brother knew Sergio would NEVER knock out Junior ('cause Junior outweighed him by 20-30 pounds).... so ol' Melon Head only had to stalk Martinez for 12 rounds hoping for a lucky shot. He got one, too. Luckily Sergio survived to the final bell, and the sham was over. It's pretty cool when you can fight someone whose punch is like a mosquito bite to you.... so you can recklessly stalk the man for the entire fight. THAT..... was Canelo against Floyd. I think the closest Canelo got to connecting was a couple of feet.

You wanna talk about GGG?? You sure you want to do this? Because I distinctly remember GGG calling out Canelo early on, only to have Canelo hide behind Oscar's skirt (the fishnets were always appropriate, BTW) and claim he wasn't a full-fledged middleweight. Which us non-blind boxing fans knew to be total bullshit. Canelo was totally a middleweight. But no.... he wanted to drag GGG down to 154 and play his weight games with him. Only to turn around and take a fight against that mummy, Melon Head. A fight made at 165 pounds. How do you explain THAT?? Take your time. If Canelo hadn't ducked GGG early on, the fight would have been made long before it was actually made.

Yes, Canelo turned pro very young. But that's no excuse to build up a bogus pro record fattened with cab drivers and bartenders. Canelo was 30-0 and being treated like a mega-star already and had yet to fight anyone with a pulse. You might not have a problem with that, but I do.

You mentioned Wilder. Feel free to go back through some of posts from earlier years when Wilder was fighting nobodies. There were few louder critics of Wilder than me. Since then he's taking more risks.

Your last sentence is one I can agree with.

"i have stated that i understand some of your frustrations and also agree with some. but i really enjoy most what canelo is doing"

It's an ok middle ground. It's not far fetched to enjoy watching Canelo fight. He's an action fighter, and you'll always get your money's worth. But IMO he's not worthy of the Hollywood hype machine they've built around him.

so, to you a risk is only if someone has the chance of knocking you out? a risk for me is a fighter challenging himself against an opponent that he risks losing to. there is no shame in losing to the best boxer in the world

you avoided the question again. when did ggg turn old? the first fight or the second fight? either way you should be rubbishing sergiy d for wasting his time against such a shot fighter. i remember cotto ducking ggg and wanting middleweights to fight at catchweights. you will say that cotto was not a middleweight. well then he shouldn’t have been fighting for middleweight titles, and both cotto and alvarez turned pro at superlightweight. i have never stated that canelo wasn’t a middleweight. If you have an issue with what oscar says take it up with him and his personal life is none of my business. and remember cotto was also playing weight games with middleweights. i have never stated that canelo wasn’t a middleweight but his fight prior to jc junior was at superwelterweight, so he essentially moved up two weight divisions for that fight. martinez and cotto ducked ggg, canelo actually fought him, twice, within two years of winning the middleweight title, something both Martinez and cotto never did

many young prospects are brought along slowly, especially if they are teenagers. not all fighters with flashy unbeaten 30 plus -0 records are treated like mega-stars. it takes more than just a record to make a superstar. the fighter needs charisma, and that something that resonates with the fans. they need to be dedicated and have that desire to compete and build a legacy. some fighters have got it and some fighters don’t. just look at fighters like andy ruiz or buster and how they lost their dedication and desire or someone like bojado, who was hailed as a future superstar before his bubble burst, or frankie gomez who also lost his desire

i never stated you weren’t a critic of wilder, only that him and mikey Garcia among others, had padded records early on. both have taken more risks since, as has canelo as he has improved and as i stated, canelo’s record is one of the best currently around the weight for opposition

as i stated, not all fighters become superstars, no matter how much they are pushed, primed and promoted, it is a special something that promoters wish they could bottle, it’s not just an unbeaten record, or just good looks, something resonates with the fans. for me it is facing good opponents. most feel canelo lost to ggg in the first fight and he was outclassed by floyd, as well as close fights with trout and lara, those fights have not hindered canelo’s popularity in the least, even with the failed drug tests, canelo is still one of the biggest names and attractions of the sport. it is similar to mcgregor in the ufc, he has lost multiple times, had rape allegations, but is still one of their biggest stars. it can't all be magically manufactured, the fighter needs to do his part