Is Canelo on a serious slide?

[TitoFan]

Anything can be manufactured nowadays... including boxing careers.

I would imagine a naturally skeptical person such as yourself would totally understand that idea.

oh definitely, look at some of the guys in the hall of fame. canelo has beaten some good fighters & fought some of the best of his era. a fighter doesn't have to be the greatest ever to have had a very good career

I'll agree that Canelo has had a very good career. But to me, his career has been carefully constructed and carried along since the beginning. Why? Starting with his early record, another example of a "pretty boy" fighter bulging up his W-L record into the 40's with a collection of no-good, over-the-hill, undersized, local bums.

Then the obviously shady decisions by WBC-appointed judges in high profile fights. The footsies he played with Golovkin (when "Fishnets" coined the term "marinating") and the weight... saying he wasn't ready for 160 when he had already gone up to fight JCC Jr. at 170, and everybody and their brother knew Canelo walked around in the 180's. His PED use, for which he got a meaningless slap on the wrist.

His clamoring for a fight against Mayweather, who was #1 p4p at the time, supposedly because he had earned it. THEN, thankfully... Mayweather gave him a boxing lesson in one of the easiest fights he's ever had. His cherry-picking and shameful reaching for trinkets like when he went up to fight Rocky Fielding, probably the WEAKEST champion in any weight division in history... bar none. Also going up to pick off lame zebra Kovalev, who had been exposed to the body by feather-punching Andre Ward.

Through all of this... it's been his fans who have contributed to the Canelo hate that many people in boxing have. They put Canelo on a pedestal from the very start, which immediately turned a bunch of us off. Casuals seem to have forgotten the TRUE Mexican warriors of the past, like Salvador Sanchez, JCC, MAB, Eric Morales, etc.

I've even criticized the way JCC began his career... pretty much in the same fashion as Canelo... bulging his record to the 40's or 50's before ever seeing a credible opponent. But at least JCC later faced the best of his time, without thinking about diva clauses... without having judges bought in his pocket... without marinating fights. The way REAL champions do their shit.

I'm sure I've forgotten many other Canelo examples, but that's pretty much why I've always maintained that his career has been manufactured. And again... knowing how you are pretty much a "show me" kind of guy... it surprised me that you would defend someone like Canelo so much.

[Primo Carnera]

Anything can be manufactured nowadays... including boxing careers.

I would imagine a naturally skeptical person such as yourself would totally understand that idea.

oh definitely, look at some of the guys in the hall of fame. canelo has beaten some good fighters & fought some of the best of his era. a fighter doesn't have to be the greatest ever to have had a very good career

I'll agree that Canelo has had a very good career. But to me, his career has been carefully constructed and carried along since the beginning. Why? Starting with his early record, another example of a "pretty boy" fighter bulging up his W-L record into the 40's with a collection of no-good, over-the-hill, undersized, local bums.

Then the obviously shady decisions by WBC-appointed judges in high profile fights. The footsies he played with Golovkin (when "Fishnets" coined the term "marinating") and the weight... saying he wasn't ready for 160 when he had already gone up to fight JCC Jr. at 170, and everybody and their brother knew Canelo walked around in the 180's. His PED use, for which he got a meaningless slap on the wrist.

His clamoring for a fight against Mayweather, who was #1 p4p at the time, supposedly because he had earned it. THEN, thankfully... Mayweather gave him a boxing lesson in one of the easiest fights he's ever had. His cherry-picking and shameful reaching for trinkets like when he went up to fight Rocky Fielding, probably the WEAKEST champion in any weight division in history... bar none. Also going up to pick off lame zebra Kovalev, who had been exposed to the body by feather-punching Andre Ward.

Through all of this... it's been his fans who have contributed to the Canelo hate that many people in boxing have. They put Canelo on a pedestal from the very start, which immediately turned a bunch of us off. Casuals seem to have forgotten the TRUE Mexican warriors of the past, like Salvador Sanchez, JCC, MAB, Eric Morales, etc.

I've even criticized the way JCC began his career... pretty much in the same fashion as Canelo... bulging his record to the 40's or 50's before ever seeing a credible opponent. But at least JCC later faced the best of his time, without thinking about diva clauses... without having judges bought in his pocket... without marinating fights. The way REAL champions do their shit.

I'm sure I've forgotten many other Canelo examples, but that's pretty much why I've always maintained that his career has been manufactured. And again... knowing how you are pretty much a "show me" kind of guy... it surprised me that you would defend someone like Canelo so much.

I only see TIC’s posts when they are quoted in a conversation. In this instance, I don’t think he has said anything that isn’t right.
At the same time I totally get every single thing Tito says above.
But all the points made are the same for any fighter IN THIS ERA. A Sides , WBC , Padded records, cherry picking titles, etc. Etc. But it’s not just Canelo this applies to. It’s any half decent champion.
I don’t think you’re that far away from each other.
IN THIS ERA, Canelo has had a great career , is he an ATG? Absolutely nowhere near it! Infact it would be an almost laughable suggestion.
You could probably pick over 20, maybe 30 or 40 guys from the past that would beat Canelo at weights where he has won World titles.
But he is in this era and is making the most of it.
I genuinely don’t mean to be condescending, but if younger People like TIC think (and I’m not suggesting he does) that someone like Canelo is anything more than what I’ve just stated, then it would probably be a bit foolish.

[NoSavingByTheBell]

He turned out to have a better chin that I thought he had at the beginning, and he's a much quicker counter-puncher than I ever gave him credit for, but the all-time greats would wipe the floor with him, although he would probably take a solid six or seven rounds. He's no pushover

[TIC]

I'll agree that Canelo has had a very good career. But to me, his career has been carefully constructed and carried along since the beginning. Why? Starting with his early record, another example of a "pretty boy" fighter bulging up his W-L record into the 40's with a collection of no-good, over-the-hill, undersized, local bums.

so we agree canelo has had a very good career. there are many fighters through the sports history i think you'll agree that have benefited from having the right management, promoter, network et cetera. i agree most of canelo's early fights were padding but to add another perspective, canelo is said to have turned pro at fifteen without much of an amateur career, so he was not only young & developing, he was also learning on the job. take someone like xander zayas, he turned pro at seventeen & has fifteen fights so far, note he is not as active as some prospects are, if he started another two years earlier it is not impossible to think his record could be approaching thirty fights by now. i'm with you about some of these well established amateurs padding their records but i have to give a fifteen year old kid a bit of breathing room

Then the obviously shady decisions by WBC-appointed judges in high profile fights. The footsies he played with Golovkin (when "Fishnets" coined the term "marinating") and the weight... saying he wasn't ready for 160 when he had already gone up to fight JCC Jr. at 170, and everybody and their brother knew Canelo walked around in the 180's. His PED use, for which he got a meaningless slap on the wrist.

bad judging has been a thing since as long as i can remember. is canelo to blame for a judges card? or does the blame fall on the wbc, the commission or canelo's promoter. i understand your frustration but really how much influence does canelo have here really? other parties involved have interests they are trying to protect. people think canelo played footsies with ggg but canelo fought ggg within a year of his last defense against liam smith at fifty four. at least canelo fought ggg, guys like felix sturm, sergio martinez & miguel cotto never did, canelo also fought ggg back to back, ggg was the favourite in the first fight, i can't find the odds for the second fight but i believe canelo was the underdog again. i agree the jccjr fight was just a cash grab but jr wanted that fight at one sixty eight, at one sixty four canelo was still moving up two divisions. i'm also disappointed with canelo's ped use but at least he got a slap on the wrist. guys like lamont peterson & erik morales along with others were allowed to fight after failing tests. what did floyd receive for his iv use before the manny pacquiao fight?

His clamoring for a fight against Mayweather, who was #1 p4p at the time, supposedly because he had earned it. THEN, thankfully... Mayweather gave him a boxing lesson in one of the easiest fights he's ever had. His cherry-picking and shameful reaching for trinkets like when he went up to fight Rocky Fielding, probably the WEAKEST champion in any weight division in history... bar none. Also going up to pick off lame zebra Kovalev, who had been exposed to the body by feather-punching Andre Ward.

i don't hold anything against canelo for challenging himself against the best fighter in the world at the time. you might not think canelo earned it but the same could be said of many of floyd's opponents. what did coner do to earn a shot at floyd? what about andre berto? & i don't see anything wrong with a young fighter challenging themselves & coming up short against the number one pound for pound fighter. it's no wonder fighters don't want to take risks these days, if fans are going to ridicule them for taking a shot. the fight with floyd is also one of the biggest pay per views, so you can't blame those involved around canelo or even canelo for wanting to gain on their investment. canelo even accepted a catchweight to get the fight done. every fighter has some gimme fights on their record. rocky was sandwiched between the two ggg fights, where i believe canelo was the underdog & danny jacobs who many thought had beaten ggg. charles martin is glaring at you right now. he wants that title. i agree sergey was past his best but he was a title holder & was coming off wins over two undefeated fighters. it was also canelo's first fight at light heavy & canelo was moving up two divisions from his previous fight. i thought sergey won the first fight with andre & that andre should have been disqualified in the rematch, so i disagree that andre exposed sergey

Through all of this... it's been his fans who have contributed to the Canelo hate that many people in boxing have. They put Canelo on a pedestal from the very start, which immediately turned a bunch of us off. Casuals seem to have forgotten the TRUE Mexican warriors of the past, like Salvador Sanchez, JCC, MAB, Eric Morales, etc.

some fighters' fans can be extreme, manny's fans were the same, floyd fan boys, the list goes on. i have been guilty of shouting the legend grows a time or three. but the run of opponents he was on since the first ggg fight was very good & just imagine if he had beaten dmitry, he took his shot & lost to the better man. i didn't really become a canelo fan until he signed to fight austin. i don't think you are referring to me as i remember sal, julio, marco antonio & erik

I've even criticized the way JCC began his career... pretty much in the same fashion as Canelo... bulging his record to the 40's or 50's before ever seeing a credible opponent. But at least JCC later faced the best of his time, without thinking about diva clauses... without having judges bought in his pocket... without marinating fights. The way REAL champions do their shit.

i think we agree on record padding. i think canelo has faced some of the best of his time as well, there may have been some clauses but canelo has also been on the opposite side where he had to agree to clauses against floyd & miguel. unfortunately this a side b side nonsense has grown over time. ray leonard was able to stipulate twelve rounds against marvin. can you blame canelo for the judges? shouldn't the commissions, governing bodies, promoters or networks bare some responsibility? i think fghting ggg within a year of his last defense at one fifty four is pretty good, when other fighters never fought ggg at all. do you not consider holding all four major belts in your division a real champion?

I'm sure I've forgotten many other Canelo examples, but that's pretty much why I've always maintained that his career has been manufactured. And again... knowing how you are pretty much a "show me" kind of guy... it surprised me that you would defend someone like Canelo so much.

i agree that some things in canelo's career may have been manufactured but he is not alone. i'm not defending canelo, i just don't single him out for things that many other fighters are also guilty of

[NoSavingByTheBell]

TIC, ya see with Canelo and Tito, there's a sort of additional element to it all. Sort of cinnamony/gingery kind of warm 'n fuzzy deal.

[TitoFan]

so we agree canelo has had a very good career. there are many fighters through the sports history i think you'll agree that have benefited from having the right management, promoter, network et cetera. i agree most of canelo's early fights were padding but to add another perspective, canelo is said to have turned pro at fifteen without much of an amateur career, so he was not only young & developing, he was also learning on the job. take someone like xander zayas, he turned pro at seventeen & has fifteen fights so far, note he is not as active as some prospects are, if he started another two years earlier it is not impossible to think his record could be approaching thirty fights by now. i'm with you about some of these well established amateurs padding their records but i have to give a fifteen year old kid a bit of breathing room


bad judging has been a thing since as long as i can remember. is canelo to blame for a judges card? or does the blame fall on the wbc, the commission or canelo's promoter. i understand your frustration but really how much influence does canelo have here really? other parties involved have interests they are trying to protect. people think canelo played footsies with ggg but canelo fought ggg within a year of his last defense against liam smith at fifty four. at least canelo fought ggg, guys like felix sturm, sergio martinez & miguel cotto never did, canelo also fought ggg back to back, ggg was the favourite in the first fight, i can't find the odds for the second fight but i believe canelo was the underdog again. i agree the jccjr fight was just a cash grab but jr wanted that fight at one sixty eight, at one sixty four canelo was still moving up two divisions. i'm also disappointed with canelo's ped use but at least he got a slap on the wrist. guys like lamont peterson & erik morales along with others were allowed to fight after failing tests. what did floyd receive for his iv use before the manny pacquiao fight?


i don't hold anything against canelo for challenging himself against the best fighter in the world at the time. you might not think canelo earned it but the same could be said of many of floyd's opponents. what did coner do to earn a shot at floyd? what about andre berto? & i don't see anything wrong with a young fighter challenging themselves & coming up short against the number one pound for pound fighter. it's no wonder fighters don't want to take risks these days, if fans are going to ridicule them for taking a shot. the fight with floyd is also one of the biggest pay per views, so you can't blame those involved around canelo or even canelo for wanting to gain on their investment. canelo even accepted a catchweight to get the fight done. every fighter has some gimme fights on their record. rocky was sandwiched between the two ggg fights, where i believe canelo was the underdog & danny jacobs who many thought had beaten ggg. charles martin is glaring at you right now. he wants that title. i agree sergey was past his best but he was a title holder & was coming off wins over two undefeated fighters. it was also canelo's first fight at light heavy & canelo was moving up two divisions from his previous fight. i thought sergey won the first fight with andre & that andre should have been disqualified in the rematch, so i disagree that andre exposed sergey

Through all of this... it's been his fans who have contributed to the Canelo hate that many people in boxing have. They put Canelo on a pedestal from the very start, which immediately turned a bunch of us off. Casuals seem to have forgotten the TRUE Mexican warriors of the past, like Salvador Sanchez, JCC, MAB, Eric Morales, etc.

some fighters' fans can be extreme, manny's fans were the same, floyd fan boys, the list goes on. i have been guilty of shouting the legend grows a time or three. but the run of opponents he was on since the first ggg fight was very good & just imagine if he had beaten dmitry, he took his shot & lost to the better man. i didn't really become a canelo fan until he signed to fight austin. i don't think you are referring to me as i remember sal, julio, marco antonio & erik

I've even criticized the way JCC began his career... pretty much in the same fashion as Canelo... bulging his record to the 40's or 50's before ever seeing a credible opponent. But at least JCC later faced the best of his time, without thinking about diva clauses... without having judges bought in his pocket... without marinating fights. The way REAL champions do their shit.

i think we agree on record padding. i think canelo has faced some of the best of his time as well, there may have been some clauses but canelo has also been on the opposite side where he had to agree to clauses against floyd & miguel. unfortunately this a side b side nonsense has grown over time. ray leonard was able to stipulate twelve rounds against marvin. can you blame canelo for the judges? shouldn't the commissions, governing bodies, promoters or networks bare some responsibility? i think fghting ggg within a year of his last defense at one fifty four is pretty good, when other fighters never fought ggg at all. do you not consider holding all four major belts in your division a real champion?

I'm sure I've forgotten many other Canelo examples, but that's pretty much why I've always maintained that his career has been manufactured.

i agree that some things in canelo's career may have been manufactured but he is not alone. i'm not defending canelo, i just don't single him out for things that many other fighters are also guilty of

This is actually the first time you and I have argued civilly over Canelo. I like it.

I don't know how many more characters the forum will allow me to add on a quoted post... but here goes.

I don't blame Canelo himself for all of the shenanigans around him (although I directly blame him for some). I blame promoters, the WBC, many Canelo fans, etc. I hate blown-up, manufactured hype... whether it's Canelo, Ryan Garcia, or anyone else. I much prefer fighters get to the top the old fashioned work. Not through pre-anointed B.S. from everyone around them (for whatever the reason). It's not a beauty contest.

But the fact of the matter is... Canelo is the beneficiary. So naturally much of the dislike is directed at him. Some things may or may not be under his control, but again... he's the beneficiary. Also... it's a fact of life that after being placed on a throne with a golden spoon in your mouth all of your career... at some point you begin to feel ENTITLED. And that's where Canelo has finally arrived. At entitled status.

The 15-year old argument... I see what you're saying. But it still doesn't make it right that a fighter should pad a PROFESSIONAL record with bums until he's 40-0 or somewhere thereabouts. Require professional fighters to have whatever they need in terms of amateur fights before stepping onto the professional ranks. Otherwise, wins and losses don't mean diddly squat. If I can't blame Canelo for that, I'll blame the system. Which by the way let me mention seems a bit more prevalent in places like Mexico (see: JCC).

I don't hold "having the right management, promoters, etc" against anybody. It's a necessary part of the business. In fact, many fighters have fallen below their potential BECAUSE they haven't had the right promoter, management, etc. But in Canelo's case it was multiplied and exaggerated. Someone in powerful places decided long ago that this "handsome", red-headed (an anomaly in Mexico) kid could be popular with the casuals (including women, which boxing always seeks to attract)... and proceeded to give Canelo every advantage in the book.

You mentioned Canelo and Cotto with regards to GGG. I remember vividly that Cotto's size wasn't suited for middleweight. Yes... his fight vs a lame Sergio Martinez was criticized and rightly so. But Cotto had no business going up against GGG. Canelo, on the contrary, is much bigger body-wise than Cotto. He dodged GGG initially with that "marinating" B.S., but then saw fit to go fight JCC Jr. at an even higher weight. Smacks of ducking and hypocrisy. But again... it's Canelo... so it's ok.

We'll agree to disagree on Fielding. That was a blatant reach for a trinket, when Canelo's team had fully calculated that Fielding posed no risk. As soon as he got the trinket, he went running back down in weight. To me, the Kovalev fight was coldly calculated as well. Canelo would've NEVER given him a second thought before the Ward debacle. All of this was proven when Canelo stupidly talked about going to cruiser to fight some obscure, unknown belt holder (forget his name at the moment). Screw the challenge. It's all about the shiny new belt. He would've never stayed at cruiser either. It's hard to respect a man like that.

Hey I get your point regarding Pac fans and Floyd fans. I'm not too fond of them either. Especially the ones that go overboard and exaggerate their man's achievements and sweep their shortcomings under the rug. I try to remain objective. But none of that lets Canelo off the hook in any of the aspects I've mentioned above.

I know boxing has changed. Nowadays I go into Facebook and it's all about what "he said" and "the other guy responded." Trash-talking on social media is what's important. Actual fights rarely happen when they should... and it's all about image.

So in summary, yes... Canelo has had a very good career. But in my view... and quoting a previous poster... "Is he an ATG? Absolutely nowhere near it."



Yep... I figured the post was too long. I'll have to remove some of the quoted parts.

[TIC]

This is actually the first time you and I have argued civilly over Canelo. I like it.

i don't see it as an argument, just a discussion to further understand each others point of view. i like it too

I don't blame Canelo himself for all of the shenanigans around him (although I directly blame him for some). I blame promoters, the WBC, many Canelo fans, etc. I hate blown-up, manufactured hype... whether it's Canelo, Ryan Garcia, or anyone else. I much prefer fighters get to the top the old fashioned work. Not through pre-anointed B.S. from everyone around them (for whatever the reason). It's not a beauty contest.

i also dislike blown up, manufactured hype & agree it's not a beauty contest. canelo though has fought basically a who's who around his weight divisions, although where some of those guys who at the time he fought them can be called into question. some others should be applauded like facing the number one pound for pound fighter at the time. he didn't win but not many others came close either. a loss to a great fighter isn't something to criticize in my opinion & again the fight is one of the biggest pay per views ever, can we blame canelo & his team for taking that floyd money at the time? i doubt many would have passed it up. you might not have thought canelo had earned a shot at floyd & i personally don't think he was ready but he was an unbeaten unified belt holder with over forty fights, so canelo would have got ridiculed for not taking the fight & he gets ridiculed for taking the fight & losing. the guy can't win

But the fact of the matter is... Canelo is the beneficiary. So naturally much of the dislike is directed at him. Some things may or may not be under his control, but again... he's the beneficiary. Also... it's a fact of life that after being placed on a throne with a golden spoon in your mouth all of your career... at some point you begin to feel ENTITLED. And that's where Canelo has finally arrived. At entitled status.

canelo was one of the beneficiaries. everyone around him also benefitted. i agree with you about the entitled status. i don't think demetrius should get a fight with canelo yet but there was no need for canelo to swear at him. shoving caleb at the presser. some of this could be marketing & i understand other fighters have had scuffles but i don't like to see that sort of nonsense from a professional athlete. so of the toughest guys i know, the real hard men i know in real life, don't need to go around trying to show they can fight, most are very gentle & kind people, they don't care for that stuff because they are the real deal

The 15-year old argument... I see what you're saying. But it still doesn't make it right that a fighter should pad a PROFESSIONAL record with bums until he's 40-0 or somewhere thereabouts. Require professional fighters to have whatever they need in terms of amateur fights before stepping onto the professional ranks. Otherwise, wins and losses don't mean diddly squat. If I can't blame Canelo for that, I'll blame the system. Which by the way let me mention seems a bit more prevalent in places like Mexico (see: JCC).

i definitely don't think experienced amateurs should be padding their records. take the guys frazier clarke & richard torres are fighting. those guys should be turning professional in six rounders & eight against guys with ten to fifteen fights. i'm sure you & i have seen our share of built records over the years

I don't hold "having the right management, promoters, etc" against anybody. It's a necessary part of the business. In fact, many fighters have fallen below their potential BECAUSE they haven't had the right promoter, management, etc. But in Canelo's case it was multiplied and exaggerated. Someone in powerful places decided long ago that this "handsome", red-headed (an anomaly in Mexico) kid could be popular with the casuals (including women, which boxing always seeks to attract)... and proceeded to give Canelo every advantage in the book.

you are probably right that some of canelo's career has been exaggerated. i sort of knew what we had in canelo when i watched his fight with a faded shane mosley. again for those who had invested in canelo they were trying to get the best out of their investment & judging by where canelo is today they have done a good job. it wasn't all just handed to canelo though, he is a good fighter & had to put in work to improve. how many times have we seen highly touted fighters come crumbling down in the professional ranks? canelo still had to fight the fights & i sure you'll agree that no one plays boxing. also canelo hasn't always been given every advantage in the book, he had to concede to catchweights for floyd & miguel

You mentioned Canelo and Cotto with regards to GGG. I remember vividly that Cotto's size wasn't suited for middleweight. Yes... his fight vs a lame Sergio Martinez was criticized and rightly so. But Cotto had no business going up against GGG. Canelo, on the contrary, is much bigger body-wise than Cotto. He dodged GGG initially with that "marinating" B.S., but then saw fit to go fight JCC Jr. at an even higher weight. Smacks of ducking and hypocrisy. But again... it's Canelo... so it's ok.

we can leave miguel out, i just think the marinating thing is a bit unfair to canelo, he fought ggg within a year of his last defense against liam smith at one fifty four. ggg held a version of the wba title from two thousand ten. canelo moved to middleweight in two thousand seventeen. before canelo got there we had middleweight champions like felix sturm, kelly pavlik, sergio martinez, arthur abraham was a champion until two thousand nine, billy joe saunders & other top middleweights who never fought ggg in that time or ever. canelo also fought ggg back to back as the underdog

We'll agree to disagree on Fielding. That was a blatant reach for a trinket, when Canelo's team had fully calculated that Fielding posed no risk. As soon as he got the trinket, he went running back down in weight. To me, the Kovalev fight was coldly calculated as well. Canelo would've NEVER given him a second thought before the Ward debacle. All of this was proven when Canelo stupidly talked about going to cruiser to fight some obscure, unknown belt holder (forget his name at the moment). Screw the challenge. It's all about the shiny new belt. He would've never stayed at cruiser either. It's hard to respect a man like that.

i'll agree that rocky might have just been a trinket grab but it was sandwiched between the two ggg fights & danny jacobs. i'm sure you have seen the second canelo v ggg fight, it was a hard fight for both guys. canelo fought a gimme at a higher weight three months later, ggg took off eight months before fighting the smaller man in vanes. canelo went running back to fight danny jacobs who many thought had beaten ggg & fought a close fight with sergiy derevyanchenko. it was not like roy jones jr dipping his toes in at heavyweight, canelo did go back up to become undisputed. i agree sergey was past his best when canelo fought him but he was still dangerous & canelo was jumping two weights from his previous fight. i don't think the fights with andre had anything to do with team canelo taking the fight, i think it had more to do with eleider knocking sergey out & anthony almost getting the job done. the fight with sergey followed the danny jacobs fight, so let's call it a gimme, canelo then went on a run to become undisputed at super middle & challenge one of the best light heavyweights, with only one gimme in that stretch. even at super middle canelo is undersized but he has challenged himself at light heavy, he would have even more disadvantages at cruiserweight but i'd still like to see him challenge himself if that's what he wants to do. his name was ilunga makabu & he's actually not that bad a fighter. i doubt canelo would have stayed at cruiser. they are too big for him, i don't think canelo should really be fighting above one sixty eight

So in summary, yes... Canelo has had a very good career. But in my view... and quoting a previous poster... "Is he an ATG? Absolutely nowhere near it."

canelo is a first round hall of famer when his time is called. i agree he is far from the top all time greats but he has fought some of the best of his time, he's been in the pound for pound debate & he's one of the sports biggest names currently. i think i'd struggle to squeeze canelo into my top hundred all time greats, not that i've ever made a list that long but there are many other very good fighters that i'd put into that same category. okay i'm done with these long replies for a bit & thanks for the boxing discussion

[TitoFan]

I believe that has been one good Canelo discussion.

[TIC]

I believe that has been one good Canelo discussion.

this is what a boxing forum should be, not trying to be right but trying to offer & see each others perspective. we don't have to agree on everything but all of us here arrived for the same reason, boxing

[Big J]

Enjoyable dialogue gents

[TIC]

when Canelo stupidly talked about going to cruiser to fight some obscure, unknown belt holder

hey titofan should we ridicule badou jack for fighting the unknown belt holder? or does badou get a pass because he's almost forty? one thing i did find funny about canelo's cruiserweight talk was how quickly don king got on his bike & made ilunga's mandatory

[TitoFan]

when Canelo stupidly talked about going to cruiser to fight some obscure, unknown belt holder

hey titofan should we ridicule badou jack for fighting the unknown belt holder? or does badou get a pass because he's almost forty? one thing i did find funny about canelo's cruiserweight talk was how quickly don king got on his bike & made ilunga's mandatory

Badou Jack gets a pass cause #1 he's a cruiser himself... and #2 because Badou Jack toils in relative obscurity. Few casuals and even some of us diehard boxing fans really know all that much about Badou Jack.





Incredible that at 91, King is still around and making noises about boxing. Anyway... it's hilarious to hear him talk and call himself a "Mejicano." Hell... he's always been willing to do and say whatever it takes to keep the wheels greased. He talks about the possibility of Canelo-Ilunga at around the 4-minute mark. What a hoot.

[TIC]

when Canelo stupidly talked about going to cruiser to fight some obscure, unknown belt holder

hey titofan should we ridicule badou jack for fighting the unknown belt holder? or does badou get a pass because he's almost forty? one thing i did find funny about canelo's cruiserweight talk was how quickly don king got on his bike & made ilunga's mandatory

Badou Jack gets a pass cause #1 he's a cruiser himself... and #2 because Badou Jack toils in relative obscurity. Few casuals and even some of us diehard boxing fans really know all that much about Badou Jack.





Incredible that at 91, King is still around and making noises about boxing. Anyway... it's hilarious to hear him talk and call himself a "Mejicano." Hell... he's always been willing to do and say whatever it takes to keep the wheels greased. He talks about the possibility of Canelo-Ilunga at around the 4-minute mark. What a hoot.

so just to clarify, a fighter has to have fought at the weight in question to get a title shot & has to be relatively obscure to earn a pass from you? yea don king saw dollar signs when team canelo came into the conversation. it's a good topic for a thread, when has a fighter had so much influence to manipulate the sport? david b v caleb could be one, canelo was saying these other guys should fight each other, kind of forced that fight

[TitoFan]

So just to clarify...

No.

A fighter has to be someone other than Canelo to get a pass from me.