Is Canelo on a serious slide?

[TIC]

This is actually the first time you and I have argued civilly over Canelo. I like it.

i don't see it as an argument, just a discussion to further understand each others point of view. i like it too

I don't blame Canelo himself for all of the shenanigans around him (although I directly blame him for some). I blame promoters, the WBC, many Canelo fans, etc. I hate blown-up, manufactured hype... whether it's Canelo, Ryan Garcia, or anyone else. I much prefer fighters get to the top the old fashioned work. Not through pre-anointed B.S. from everyone around them (for whatever the reason). It's not a beauty contest.

i also dislike blown up, manufactured hype & agree it's not a beauty contest. canelo though has fought basically a who's who around his weight divisions, although where some of those guys who at the time he fought them can be called into question. some others should be applauded like facing the number one pound for pound fighter at the time. he didn't win but not many others came close either. a loss to a great fighter isn't something to criticize in my opinion & again the fight is one of the biggest pay per views ever, can we blame canelo & his team for taking that floyd money at the time? i doubt many would have passed it up. you might not have thought canelo had earned a shot at floyd & i personally don't think he was ready but he was an unbeaten unified belt holder with over forty fights, so canelo would have got ridiculed for not taking the fight & he gets ridiculed for taking the fight & losing. the guy can't win

But the fact of the matter is... Canelo is the beneficiary. So naturally much of the dislike is directed at him. Some things may or may not be under his control, but again... he's the beneficiary. Also... it's a fact of life that after being placed on a throne with a golden spoon in your mouth all of your career... at some point you begin to feel ENTITLED. And that's where Canelo has finally arrived. At entitled status.

canelo was one of the beneficiaries. everyone around him also benefitted. i agree with you about the entitled status. i don't think demetrius should get a fight with canelo yet but there was no need for canelo to swear at him. shoving caleb at the presser. some of this could be marketing & i understand other fighters have had scuffles but i don't like to see that sort of nonsense from a professional athlete. so of the toughest guys i know, the real hard men i know in real life, don't need to go around trying to show they can fight, most are very gentle & kind people, they don't care for that stuff because they are the real deal

The 15-year old argument... I see what you're saying. But it still doesn't make it right that a fighter should pad a PROFESSIONAL record with bums until he's 40-0 or somewhere thereabouts. Require professional fighters to have whatever they need in terms of amateur fights before stepping onto the professional ranks. Otherwise, wins and losses don't mean diddly squat. If I can't blame Canelo for that, I'll blame the system. Which by the way let me mention seems a bit more prevalent in places like Mexico (see: JCC).

i definitely don't think experienced amateurs should be padding their records. take the guys frazier clarke & richard torres are fighting. those guys should be turning professional in six rounders & eight against guys with ten to fifteen fights. i'm sure you & i have seen our share of built records over the years

I don't hold "having the right management, promoters, etc" against anybody. It's a necessary part of the business. In fact, many fighters have fallen below their potential BECAUSE they haven't had the right promoter, management, etc. But in Canelo's case it was multiplied and exaggerated. Someone in powerful places decided long ago that this "handsome", red-headed (an anomaly in Mexico) kid could be popular with the casuals (including women, which boxing always seeks to attract)... and proceeded to give Canelo every advantage in the book.

you are probably right that some of canelo's career has been exaggerated. i sort of knew what we had in canelo when i watched his fight with a faded shane mosley. again for those who had invested in canelo they were trying to get the best out of their investment & judging by where canelo is today they have done a good job. it wasn't all just handed to canelo though, he is a good fighter & had to put in work to improve. how many times have we seen highly touted fighters come crumbling down in the professional ranks? canelo still had to fight the fights & i sure you'll agree that no one plays boxing. also canelo hasn't always been given every advantage in the book, he had to concede to catchweights for floyd & miguel

You mentioned Canelo and Cotto with regards to GGG. I remember vividly that Cotto's size wasn't suited for middleweight. Yes... his fight vs a lame Sergio Martinez was criticized and rightly so. But Cotto had no business going up against GGG. Canelo, on the contrary, is much bigger body-wise than Cotto. He dodged GGG initially with that "marinating" B.S., but then saw fit to go fight JCC Jr. at an even higher weight. Smacks of ducking and hypocrisy. But again... it's Canelo... so it's ok.

we can leave miguel out, i just think the marinating thing is a bit unfair to canelo, he fought ggg within a year of his last defense against liam smith at one fifty four. ggg held a version of the wba title from two thousand ten. canelo moved to middleweight in two thousand seventeen. before canelo got there we had middleweight champions like felix sturm, kelly pavlik, sergio martinez, arthur abraham was a champion until two thousand nine, billy joe saunders & other top middleweights who never fought ggg in that time or ever. canelo also fought ggg back to back as the underdog

We'll agree to disagree on Fielding. That was a blatant reach for a trinket, when Canelo's team had fully calculated that Fielding posed no risk. As soon as he got the trinket, he went running back down in weight. To me, the Kovalev fight was coldly calculated as well. Canelo would've NEVER given him a second thought before the Ward debacle. All of this was proven when Canelo stupidly talked about going to cruiser to fight some obscure, unknown belt holder (forget his name at the moment). Screw the challenge. It's all about the shiny new belt. He would've never stayed at cruiser either. It's hard to respect a man like that.

i'll agree that rocky might have just been a trinket grab but it was sandwiched between the two ggg fights & danny jacobs. i'm sure you have seen the second canelo v ggg fight, it was a hard fight for both guys. canelo fought a gimme at a higher weight three months later, ggg took off eight months before fighting the smaller man in vanes. canelo went running back to fight danny jacobs who many thought had beaten ggg & fought a close fight with sergiy derevyanchenko. it was not like roy jones jr dipping his toes in at heavyweight, canelo did go back up to become undisputed. i agree sergey was past his best when canelo fought him but he was still dangerous & canelo was jumping two weights from his previous fight. i don't think the fights with andre had anything to do with team canelo taking the fight, i think it had more to do with eleider knocking sergey out & anthony almost getting the job done. the fight with sergey followed the danny jacobs fight, so let's call it a gimme, canelo then went on a run to become undisputed at super middle & challenge one of the best light heavyweights, with only one gimme in that stretch. even at super middle canelo is undersized but he has challenged himself at light heavy, he would have even more disadvantages at cruiserweight but i'd still like to see him challenge himself if that's what he wants to do. his name was ilunga makabu & he's actually not that bad a fighter. i doubt canelo would have stayed at cruiser. they are too big for him, i don't think canelo should really be fighting above one sixty eight

So in summary, yes... Canelo has had a very good career. But in my view... and quoting a previous poster... "Is he an ATG? Absolutely nowhere near it."

canelo is a first round hall of famer when his time is called. i agree he is far from the top all time greats but he has fought some of the best of his time, he's been in the pound for pound debate & he's one of the sports biggest names currently. i think i'd struggle to squeeze canelo into my top hundred all time greats, not that i've ever made a list that long but there are many other very good fighters that i'd put into that same category. okay i'm done with these long replies for a bit & thanks for the boxing discussion

[TitoFan]

I believe that has been one good Canelo discussion.

[TIC]

I believe that has been one good Canelo discussion.

this is what a boxing forum should be, not trying to be right but trying to offer & see each others perspective. we don't have to agree on everything but all of us here arrived for the same reason, boxing

[Big J]

Enjoyable dialogue gents