Andre Ward DESERVED a Canelo fight!

[Primo Carnera]

@TIC , I don’t want to take the piss because everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours usually are pretty on the mark. But what makes you think Canelo KO’s Ward ?

[Spicoli]

Random sighting but I don't think there was a soul alive who wanted or expected Cotto to actually fight Golovkin. We all knew where Cotto was heading with that belt and it was straight to Canelo who was fighting his 4th catchweight in 5 fights. Golovkin would have muttered Cotto. On Ward I'm just not sure where Canelo was supposed to fight him weight wise. Ward bounced 168 to 175 when Canelo was still being called "green" vs Mayweather and not even cracking 160.

[TIC]

i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat. miguel & sergio aren't the only ones that ducked ggg

[Spicoli]

i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat. miguel & sergio aren't the only ones that ducked ggg

Well it was just never in the cards as Cotto v Canelo was being HBO targeted even prior to Canelo dusting off Kirkland and Cotto making his initial defense. And it gets lost, but Golovkin willfully accepted step aside money in order for that lead up and mega fight to take place.

It is interesting to ponder though. Let's say Golovkin is in there rather than Geale and he demolishes Cotto thus becoming champ. It could have completely changed history. Does Canelo sac up and go for the vaunted middleweight title vs Golovkin at that point because it's no longer Cotto? Or does he do the same slooow role he did, needing 4 catchweight fights over two years. If Cotto was expected to face him after just 1 middleweight/CW fight, shirley Canelo could. It would have been very interesting.

[TIC]

i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat. miguel & sergio aren't the only ones that ducked ggg

Well it was just never in the cards as Cotto v Canelo was being HBO targeted even prior to Canelo dusting off Kirkland and Cotto making his initial defense. And it gets lost, but Golovkin willfully accepted step aside money in order for that lead up and mega fight to take place.

It is interesting to ponder though. Let's say Golovkin is in there rather than Geale and he demolishes Cotto thus becoming champ. It could have completely changed history. Does Canelo sac up and go for the vaunted middleweight title vs Golovkin at that point because it's no longer Cotto? Or does he do the same slooow role he did, needing 4 catchweight fights over two years. If Cotto was expected to face him after just 1 middleweight/CW fight, shirley Canelo could. It would have been very interesting.

well by your reasoning then canelo v david b was just never in the cards. i'm fully aware of the eight hundred k step aside money. the step aside offer came from team miguel, it wasn't ggg's idea. if ggg refused miguel would have just dropped the belt, which basically happened anyway because miguel refused to pay the sanctioning fees. what's your excuse for sergio?

let's go back a step. if sergio fights ggg & ggg demolishes sergio thus becoming champion. it could have completely changed history. does miguel sac up & go for the vaunted middleweight title v ggg at that point? as for canelo's catchweights, one was requested of him from floyd, the alfredo & erislandy were both one pound over the jr middleweight limit & james had fought over the catchweight limit in his previous fight. sergio & miguel were expected to fight ggg but didn't, canelo did. it would have been interesting

[TitoFan]

I find all this convoluted speculation amusing. It's always been clear to any knowledgeable boxing fan that Cotto was never a true middleweight. I personally never supported nor defended Cotto for his ventures into middleweight. I thought his physical peak was at 154, and that's that.

This... is what makes me the objective fight fan that I am.

Using Cotto as a comparison to somehow defend Canelo and his shenanigans is beyond laughable. I don't recall Cotto ever asking anyone to drain himself 20 pounds in order to fight for some mythical title a couple of weight divisions higher than he (Cotto) was fit to fight.

My only contribution to this thread was to say that it's laughable to say Andre Ward "deserved" a Canelo fight, when in actuality Ward was twice the boxer Canelo will ever be. That Ward was frustrating in his inactivity, and didn't fight long enough to test himself against some real challenges out there... yeah. Which is why I've never been a huge Ward fan either.

That's all.

Go back to your convoluted "what ifs" which are harder to follow than one of Trump's speeches on windmills or the COVID virus.

[TIC]

I find all this convoluted speculation amusing. It's always been clear to any knowledgeable boxing fan that Cotto was never a true middleweight. I personally never supported nor defended Cotto for his ventures into middleweight. I thought his physical peak was at 154, and that's that.

Using Cotto as a comparison to somehow defend Canelo and his shenanigans is beyond laughable. I don't recall Cotto ever asking anyone to drain himself 20 pounds in order to fight for some mythical title a couple of weight divisions higher than he (Cotto) was fit to fight.

My only contribution to this thread was to say that it's laughable to say Andre Ward "deserved" a Canelo fight, when in actuality Ward was twice the boxer Canelo will ever be. That Ward was frustrating in his inactivity, and didn't fight long enough to test himself against some real challenges out there... yeah. Which is why I've never been a huge Ward fan either.

That's all.

any knowledgeable boxing fan knows miguel won the middleweight title & any knowledgeable boxing fan should want a champion to fight their biggest threat & that's that

i am not using miguel as a comparison to canelo. i am highlighting that a real huge ggg fan would call out the guys who ducked him. miguel never offered to fight someone who weighed 32 pounds more than him in their previous fights & the alleged offer to badou still would have been within the cruiserweight limits as you very well know. miguel did however request catchweights when titles were on the line, forcing fighters to weigh less than the championship limit

you also contributed this

I've always been a huge GGG fan

which lead to this current discussion. the andre v canelo fight was never really even a thing as andre was weights above canelo at those times

that is all

[Spicoli]

i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat. miguel & sergio aren't the only ones that ducked ggg

Well it was just never in the cards as Cotto v Canelo was being HBO targeted even prior to Canelo dusting off Kirkland and Cotto making his initial defense. And it gets lost, but Golovkin willfully accepted step aside money in order for that lead up and mega fight to take place.

It is interesting to ponder though. Let's say Golovkin is in there rather than Geale and he demolishes Cotto thus becoming champ. It could have completely changed history. Does Canelo sac up and go for the vaunted middleweight title vs Golovkin at that point because it's no longer Cotto? Or does he do the same slooow role he did, needing 4 catchweight fights over two years. If Cotto was expected to face him after just 1 middleweight/CW fight, shirley Canelo could. It would have been very interesting.

well by your reasoning then canelo v david b was just never in the cards. i'm fully aware of the eight hundred k step aside money. the step aside offer came from team miguel, it wasn't ggg's idea. if ggg refused miguel would have just dropped the belt, which basically happened anyway because miguel refused to pay the sanctioning fees. what's your excuse for sergio?

let's go back a step. if sergio fights ggg & ggg demolishes sergio thus becoming champion. it could have completely changed history. does miguel sac up & go for the vaunted middleweight title v ggg at that point? as for canelo's catchweights, one was requested of him from floyd, the alfredo & erislandy were both one pound over the jr middleweight limit & james had fought over the catchweight limit in his previous fight. sergio & miguel were expected to fight ggg but didn't, canelo did. it would have been interesting

It's not my reasoning it's what actually happened and what was always going to happen, and what all parties involved were steering to and leading fans into loud and clear. I'd say Benavidez-Canelo was much more in the cards based on oh I dunno, them actually being in the same division for years, Benavidez holding the top spot and interim and fans and media actually calling for it . Unlike Cotto-Golovkin. And what happened to that "I want the champ to fight the biggest threat" call out you speak of. Or per usual is Canelo above being called out and labeled ducker as with Cotto/Martinez.

Excuse for Sergio for what? A 39 year old Sergio with clearly knees shot to pieces would have met the exact same fate as Cotto vs Golovkin. Probably worse. And as already stated, no Cotto does not fight Golovkin in his first venture above 154 as we all know he would have been demolished, at any point. That entire middleweight/not middleweight period was bs. It was all about being able to say multi division champ. But I'll ask the question again...does Canelo go after Golovkin right off if he would have dusted Cotto, or does he need the 4 catchweights and 2 years to do that? Yep Canelo loved his catchweights. It was a running joke when people would say they're fighting at "Caneloweight" having fought 7 in roughly 3.5 years. And glad you caught the Angulo one. As it was Canelo who would/could not make the weight.

[TitoFan]

i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat. miguel & sergio aren't the only ones that ducked ggg

Well it was just never in the cards as Cotto v Canelo was being HBO targeted even prior to Canelo dusting off Kirkland and Cotto making his initial defense. And it gets lost, but Golovkin willfully accepted step aside money in order for that lead up and mega fight to take place.

It is interesting to ponder though. Let's say Golovkin is in there rather than Geale and he demolishes Cotto thus becoming champ. It could have completely changed history. Does Canelo sac up and go for the vaunted middleweight title vs Golovkin at that point because it's no longer Cotto? Or does he do the same slooow role he did, needing 4 catchweight fights over two years. If Cotto was expected to face him after just 1 middleweight/CW fight, shirley Canelo could. It would have been very interesting.

well by your reasoning then canelo v david b was just never in the cards. i'm fully aware of the eight hundred k step aside money. the step aside offer came from team miguel, it wasn't ggg's idea. if ggg refused miguel would have just dropped the belt, which basically happened anyway because miguel refused to pay the sanctioning fees. what's your excuse for sergio?

let's go back a step. if sergio fights ggg & ggg demolishes sergio thus becoming champion. it could have completely changed history. does miguel sac up & go for the vaunted middleweight title v ggg at that point? as for canelo's catchweights, one was requested of him from floyd, the alfredo & erislandy were both one pound over the jr middleweight limit & james had fought over the catchweight limit in his previous fight. sergio & miguel were expected to fight ggg but didn't, canelo did. it would have been interesting

It's not my reasoning it's what actually happened and what was always going to happen, and what all parties involved were steering to and leading fans into loud and clear. I'd say Benavidez-Canelo was much more in the cards based on oh I dunno, them actually being in the same division for years, Benavidez holding the top spot and interim and fans and media actually calling for it . Unlike Cotto-Golovkin. And what happened to that "I want the champ to fight the biggest threat" call out you speak of. Or per usual is Canelo above being called out and labeled ducker as with Cotto/Martinez.

Excuse for Sergio for what? A 39 year old Sergio with clearly knees shot to pieces would have met the exact same fate as Cotto vs Golovkin. Probably worse. And as already stated, no Cotto does not fight Golovkin in his first venture above 154 as we all know he would have been demolished, at any point. That entire middleweight/not middleweight period was bs. It was all about being able to say multi division champ. But I'll ask the question again...does Canelo go after Golovkin right off if he would have dusted Cotto, or does he need the 4 catchweights and 2 years to do that? Yep Canelo loved his catchweights. It was a running joke when people would say they're fighting at "Caneloweight" having fought 7 in roughly 3.5 years. And glad you caught the Angulo one. As it was Canelo who would/could not make the weight.

If memory serves me correctly, it was avoiding a showdown against GGG that the Canelo camp came up with the term "marinating."

Canelo wasn't (cough) ready to fight GGG at the time... but somewhere in there he managed to go up even higher in weight to fight the mummy... Chavez Jr.

Canelo's career has been chockfull of calculations, marinating, clause-making, etc.

If nothing else, he gets a PhD on navigating around the biggest risks, while smelling like a rose to his fanatical fanbase.

[TIC]

i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat. miguel & sergio aren't the only ones that ducked ggg

Well it was just never in the cards as Cotto v Canelo was being HBO targeted even prior to Canelo dusting off Kirkland and Cotto making his initial defense. And it gets lost, but Golovkin willfully accepted step aside money in order for that lead up and mega fight to take place.

It is interesting to ponder though. Let's say Golovkin is in there rather than Geale and he demolishes Cotto thus becoming champ. It could have completely changed history. Does Canelo sac up and go for the vaunted middleweight title vs Golovkin at that point because it's no longer Cotto? Or does he do the same slooow role he did, needing 4 catchweight fights over two years. If Cotto was expected to face him after just 1 middleweight/CW fight, shirley Canelo could. It would have been very interesting.

well by your reasoning then canelo v david b was just never in the cards. i'm fully aware of the eight hundred k step aside money. the step aside offer came from team miguel, it wasn't ggg's idea. if ggg refused miguel would have just dropped the belt, which basically happened anyway because miguel refused to pay the sanctioning fees. what's your excuse for sergio?

let's go back a step. if sergio fights ggg & ggg demolishes sergio thus becoming champion. it could have completely changed history. does miguel sac up & go for the vaunted middleweight title v ggg at that point? as for canelo's catchweights, one was requested of him from floyd, the alfredo & erislandy were both one pound over the jr middleweight limit & james had fought over the catchweight limit in his previous fight. sergio & miguel were expected to fight ggg but didn't, canelo did. it would have been interesting

It's not my reasoning it's what actually happened and what was always going to happen, and what all parties involved were steering to and leading fans into loud and clear. I'd say Benavidez-Canelo was much more in the cards based on oh I dunno, them actually being in the same division for years, Benavidez holding the top spot and interim and fans and media actually calling for it . Unlike Cotto-Golovkin. And what happened to that "I want the champ to fight the biggest threat" call out you speak of. Or per usual is Canelo above being called out and labeled ducker as with Cotto/Martinez.

Excuse for Sergio for what? A 39 year old Sergio with clearly knees shot to pieces would have met the exact same fate as Cotto vs Golovkin. Probably worse. And as already stated, no Cotto does not fight Golovkin in his first venture above 154 as we all know he would have been demolished, at any point. That entire middleweight/not middleweight period was bs. It was all about being able to say multi division champ. But I'll ask the question again...does Canelo go after Golovkin right off if he would have dusted Cotto, or does he need the 4 catchweights and 2 years to do that? Yep Canelo loved his catchweights. It was a running joke when people would say they're fighting at "Caneloweight" having fought 7 in roughly 3.5 years. And glad you caught the Angulo one. As it was Canelo who would/could not make the weight.

i said "i was alive & wanted the champion to fight his number one threat", your response was "Well it was just never in the cards", your words, your reasoning. you saying david b v canelo was much more in the cards is not taking into account canelo's plans. he had a contract for dmitry & then ggg three. needed surgery, took a lighter fight & was looking for the rematch with dmitry, made an offer but it was refused, leading canelo to look elsewhere. that timeline took us through to the jermell & demetrius fights. david b moved up next fight & was then given the choice to keep his light heavy or super middle interim belt & he chose light heavy, giving up the chance to form a mandatory shot. i agree david b was probably the most deserving of a shot at canelo but he wasn't canelo's biggest threat for me, that was david m. miguel was the champion & had a clear number one threat. canelo was the champion but there was no clear number one. i had been saying for years those guys should have fought each other to establish a clear number one challenger

sergio was thirty nine & had bad knees from serhiy dzinziruk to martin murray? sergio was the champion & ggg was the clear biggest threat. i guess it's only canelo who has to fight who you perceive as his biggest threat & for others it's just oh well just not in the cards. i think canelo fights ggg if he beat sergio or miguel. he fought ggg within a year of defending a jr middleweight belt. be honest about the catchweights. canelo didn't request all of them. fact is canelo was still defending a jr middleweight belt only a year before fighting ggg

[TIC]

@TIC , I don’t want to take the piss because everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours usually are pretty on the mark. But what makes you think Canelo KO’s Ward ?

andre would be the b side, he wouldn't be allowed his dirty tactics against canelo & would be forced to fight. canelo would hurt him to the body before knocking him out late. the corner might have had to save andre

[Primo Carnera]

@TIC , I don’t want to take the piss because everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours usually are pretty on the mark. But what makes you think Canelo KO’s Ward ?

andre would be the b side, he wouldn't be allowed his dirty tactics against canelo & would be forced to fight. canelo would hurt him to the body before knocking him out late. the corner might have had to save andre

Well that’s one view. But Ward never lost a fight from 11 years of age till the end of his career, and never looked like getting KO’d.
And he wasn’t the A side in all those fights. You earn the right.

[Master]

@TIC , I don’t want to take the piss because everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours usually are pretty on the mark. But what makes you think Canelo KO’s Ward ?

andre would be the b side, he wouldn't be allowed his dirty tactics against canelo & would be forced to fight. canelo would hurt him to the body before knocking him out late. the corner might have had to save andre

Well that’s one view. But Ward never lost a fight from 11 years of age till the end of his career, and never looked like getting KO’d.
And he wasn’t the A side in all those fights. You earn the right.

Even if Canelo was allowed special cow meat, altered gloves and weight stipulations that are in his favour he would never knock out Ward.

[Denilson3.0]

In Football / Soccer there is an old adage “the first five yards in your head” meaning that they could could read things a little bit faster, had a better understanding of what was happening before it happened, that's a description I think fits Ward quite well, he just saw and understood the pattern of the fight before his opponent did and capitalized on every advantage he saw.

He is an inaugural super 6 winner and one of the last truly top fighters from the old US boxing program days when Kenny Adams was involved and he was the last USA gold medalist at an Olympics (But I actually think he lost that fight)..

But he was boring and dirty. I mean, he almost sterilized Kovalev with that combo to the balls.



His entire gameplan revolved around clinching and dirty tactics, which was called his fantastic 'inside game', which was potshot single jab, rush in with his head, clinch, mix in some elbows, headbutts and lowblows and rinse and repeat.

I'm not denying he was a good boxer, but he only fought with hometown refs and judges for a VERY good reason. In a sense Ward was a hustler, his whole style was based around nullifying his opponent however he could, and that rarely led to exciting fights. Shame him and Calzaghe didn't fight as I think Calzaghe would have beaten him due to his output.

There is a strong argument that Ward wouldn't even get in the top 10 of SMW of the last 30 years. I'd be far from confident that Ward could beat RJJ, Toney, Calzaghe, Hopkins, McCallum, Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Canelo, GGG.

There's a case to say that Ward would get beat by them all.

But there is also a case to say that Ward could beat most of them. You just never truly know with undefeated fighters

BUT

• Being undefeated is not that important
• Being undefeated, when you fought nobody... is worthless
• Being undefeated, when you fought everybody... is rare, and exceptiona

There is a reason he retired all early (I mean what top boxer retires at 33 nowadays ?) at LHW he didn't want to get exposed by all the killers (Beterbiev) that were coming up in the division.

[TIC]

@TIC , I don’t want to take the piss because everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours usually are pretty on the mark. But what makes you think Canelo KO’s Ward ?

andre would be the b side, he wouldn't be allowed his dirty tactics against canelo & would be forced to fight. canelo would hurt him to the body before knocking him out late. the corner might have had to save andre

Well that’s one view. But Ward never lost a fight from 11 years of age till the end of his career, and never looked like getting KO’d.
And he wasn’t the A side in all those fights. You earn the right.

andre sure looked unsteady after darnell dropped him & he wouldn't be getting up if canelo landed a right like sergei did