Calzaghe or Jones Jr. Greatest SMW of all time

[TitoFan]

So which one is greater at 168 and why?

Arguments for each

Calzaghe
Undefeated
Ring #1 at 168
Ring #3 p4p
Held IBF, WBO, WBA and WBC titles

Big wins at 168
Jeff Lacy (UD)
Mikkel Kessler (UD)

Record at 168: 35-0-0 (23 KOs) (Win %: 100%/ KO %:65.7%)

Opponents combined record: 783-176-23 (Win %: 79.7%)


Jones Jr.
Undefeated at 168
Ring #1 at 168
Ring #1 p4p
Held IBF title
Round 6 against Paz was probably the most dominant round in boxing history (3 knockdowns and Jones was not hit once)

Big Wins at 168
Vinny Pazienza (TKO 6)
James Toney (UD)

Record at 168: 13-0-0 (11 KOs) (Win %:100% / KO %: 84.6%)

Opponents combined record: 321-51-8 (Win %: 84.4%)


Others Mentioned
Sven Ottke

I will edit this as the debate unfolds

I must've repped you already, because I was unable to this time. But great poll, complete with good stats to compare from.

Anyway, I voted Roy Jones Jr. All respect to Joe and his record. But having seen them both on numerous occasions, I'd have to say I consider RJJ the better fighter at his peak. More speed, better boxing skills... and definitely more power (deceptively so, but more power). One thing I dont' like about Calzaghe is his tendency to throw pitty-pat punches during his flurries.

[bigragu]

So which one is greater at 168 and why?

Arguments for each

Calzaghe
Undefeated
Ring #1 at 168
Ring #3 p4p
Held IBF, WBO, WBA and WBC titles

Big wins at 168
Jeff Lacy (UD)
Mikkel Kessler (UD)

Record at 168: 35-0-0 (23 KOs) (Win %: 100%/ KO %:65.7%)

Opponents combined record: 783-176-23 (Win %: 79.7%)


Jones Jr.
Undefeated at 168
Ring #1 at 168
Ring #1 p4p
Held IBF title
Round 6 against Paz was probably the most dominant round in boxing history (3 knockdowns and Jones was not hit once)

Big Wins at 168
Vinny Pazienza (TKO 6)
James Toney (UD)

Record at 168: 13-0-0 (11 KOs) (Win %:100% / KO %: 84.6%)

Opponents combined record: 321-51-8 (Win %: 84.4%)


Others Mentioned
Sven Ottke

I will edit this as the debate unfolds

I would look at prime vs prime. RJJ was an absolute BEAST at 168! Sure he only had 12 fights there but he went on to bigger things. Don't see Joe C winning any HW title. RJJ flat out embarrassed people. So I gave my vote to RJJ.

[southakron314]

Exactly. I think Joe is the most overrated fighter in recent memory. But i guess some people are impressed by his "flurries", "fast hands" or his underwhelming resume. I only wish he fought Roy at his prime...Jones would have embarrassed him. I have nothing against Joe personally...he seems like a nice guy. But aside from a past prime Eubanks (close fight) and a past prime Hopkins (close fight)...he hasn't fought a great opponent. So i don't care if you are 100-0. Ultimately a fighter is judged by his resume...and Joe's looks mighty thin. Whether that's his fault or not is beside the point. Sure, Roy fought a whole lot less at SMW...but he had the greater impact. By impact i mean we have never seen a fighter with his incredible athleticism or skills at that weight...or maybe any weight. Plus, even if Roy's biggest win was over a PRIME Toney...that is still a much bigger win than anyone Calzaghe fought at that weight.

Eubank planted Calzaghe on his ass. Roy Jones Jr knocking a guy down with a 40-5-1 record down three times and was never hit in a single round is more impressive than Calzaghes entire resume. Calzaghe would have ducked him back then. To me that is more impressive than a pitcher throwing a perfect game.

Well first of all it was Calzaghe who planted Eubank on his ass, your argument immediately collapses as you show yourself to be merely a Max Kellerman puppet and have never even seen the fight. Calzaghe dropped Eubank not the other way around.

Secondly, the question is 'who is the greatest supermiddleweight' ever and the clue is in the title.

It is CLEARLY Joe Calzaghe. He reigned longer at supermiddleweight longer than any other fighter. He had more defenses at supermidleweight than any other fighter. He won more belts at supermiddleweight than any other fighter. He was the only one to ever unify the suppermiddleweight division.
He beat more Ring top 10 supermiddleweights than any other fighter.

So what your in effect saying is, ok Roy didn't win as many belts, he didn't make as many defenses, he didn't dominate the division for more than a decade, he didn't beat as many Ring top 10 middleweights, he didn't unify any title and he was never awarded the Ring belt for being the best supermiddleweight ever BUT in YOUR OPINION in a fictional matchup between the two Roy would have won IN YOUR OPINION so all of Joe's acomplishments don't matter.

Sorry I ment to say it was a half ass contender like Byron Mitchell (25-2-1) who put him on his ass. I don't think Bryon Mitchell would ever put RJJ on his ass. The best man Calzaghe ever bested was a middle aged man.

[NUCLEAR BULL]

When you make blatant lies like this do you think people will actually believe you?

get your facts straight buddy before calling someone a lier IM A BIT DISSAPOINTED A PERSON WITH YOUR REP JUMPS THE GUN SO QUICKLY FENSTER BUT I QUESS THESE THINGS HAPPEN TO US ALL MATE..........CALZAGHE EVEN MENTIONES IT IN A RING MAGAZINE INTERVIEW THAT OTTKA WANTED A FIGHT BUT IN GERMAN WHILE JOE WANTED IT IN WALES, THERE BOTH HOME FIGHTER YOU UNDERSTAND

OK Buster. As njackets said - how exactly does that mean Calzaghe was ducking powderpuff Ottke?

Ottke was making millions getting favourable decisions in Germany. Why would he fight Calzaghe?

Here's a few things for you -

BBC SPORT | Boxing | Ottke spurns Calzaghe

Even Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, said Ottke DID NOT want to fight Calzaghe.

Whether you believe it or not here's a Warren quote - "We made two career high offers to Ottke's camp to fight in Germany, even though we'd seen what had happened with (Robin) Reid and (Charles) Brewer. Both were refused without any negotiation. That told me all I needed to know." - Frank Warren

your right i dont believe any thing frank warren says, any time he speaks its that he made a career high offer......he has a rep for not being overly honest when it comes to these things

there was a interview where calzaghe says they wanted him to fight ottka in german, his reponse was...... brewer got robbed out there, and that even muhammed ali wouldn't get a points win in germany so he choose to not take the fight stating he didn't need to as he'd win due to ottkas lack of ability and it wouldn't prove anything.............i quess he felt he couldn't stop powder puff ottka

thats typical of joe, says one thing then later says another, just think back to the b-hop fight...........he said whos hopkins beaten...tarver, well whos tarver whats he ever done to be classed a big win... later he said after he beats hopkins he wants one more super fight and that would be roy jones or tarver, thats the same tarver he was putting doen earlier, you see waht i'm saying.............so i find it hard when him and warren talk to take them honestly. everyone has there own views. i've never called anyone lier on here, and have no reason to lie myself, a gain 000000000000000 from any of it weather he fights someone or not, i'm a fan of many boxer, if they win or lose it make no dif to me, i'm not a gambler so i gain no money nor lose it so have no need to lie about what i know or what i've read or watched a boxer say, just because i say something i heard your favorite boxer say which you dont like doesn't mean i'm saying about you so you shouldn't take it personal and get angry therefore call me or anyone else a lier

[Violent Demise]

get your facts straight buddy before calling someone a lier IM A BIT DISSAPOINTED A PERSON WITH YOUR REP JUMPS THE GUN SO QUICKLY FENSTER BUT I QUESS THESE THINGS HAPPEN TO US ALL MATE..........CALZAGHE EVEN MENTIONES IT IN A RING MAGAZINE INTERVIEW THAT OTTKA WANTED A FIGHT BUT IN GERMAN WHILE JOE WANTED IT IN WALES, THERE BOTH HOME FIGHTER YOU UNDERSTAND

OK Buster. As njackets said - how exactly does that mean Calzaghe was ducking powderpuff Ottke?

Ottke was making millions getting favourable decisions in Germany. Why would he fight Calzaghe?

Here's a few things for you -

BBC SPORT | Boxing | Ottke spurns Calzaghe

Even Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, said Ottke DID NOT want to fight Calzaghe.

Whether you believe it or not here's a Warren quote - "We made two career high offers to Ottke's camp to fight in Germany, even though we'd seen what had happened with (Robin) Reid and (Charles) Brewer. Both were refused without any negotiation. That told me all I needed to know." - Frank Warren

your right i dont believe any thing frank warren says, any time he speaks its that he made a career high offer......he has a rep for not being overly honest when it comes to these things

there was a interview where calzaghe says they wanted him to fight ottka in german, his reponse was...... brewer got robbed out there, and that even muhammed ali wouldn't get a points win in germany so he choose to not take the fight stating he didn't need to as he'd win due to ottkas lack of ability and it wouldn't prove anything.............i quess he felt he couldn't stop powder puff ottka

thats typical of joe, says one thing then later says another, just think back to the b-hop fight...........he said whos hopkins beaten...tarver, well whos tarver whats he ever done to be classed a big win... later he said after he beats hopkins he wants one more super fight and that would be roy jones or tarver, thats the same tarver he was putting doen earlier, you see waht i'm saying.............so i find it hard when him and warren talk to take them honestly. everyone has there own views. i've never called anyone lier on here, and have no reason to lie myself, a gain 000000000000000 from any of it weather he fights someone or not, i'm a fan of many boxer, if they win or lose it make no dif to me, i'm not a gambler so i gain no money nor lose it so have no need to lie about what i know or what i've read or watched a boxer say, just because i say something i heard your favorite boxer say which you dont like doesn't mean i'm saying about you so you shouldn't take it personal and get angry therefore call me or anyone else a lier

Yeah, yeah. I read the same interview.

[BIG H]

It's Calzaghe at SMW surely without debate? RJJ p4p YES, but Calzaghe has reigned for 11 years at SMW, RJJ didn't fight anybody of any note except Toney at SMW!!!

[Fenster]

get your facts straight buddy before calling someone a lier IM A BIT DISSAPOINTED A PERSON WITH YOUR REP JUMPS THE GUN SO QUICKLY FENSTER BUT I QUESS THESE THINGS HAPPEN TO US ALL MATE..........CALZAGHE EVEN MENTIONES IT IN A RING MAGAZINE INTERVIEW THAT OTTKA WANTED A FIGHT BUT IN GERMAN WHILE JOE WANTED IT IN WALES, THERE BOTH HOME FIGHTER YOU UNDERSTAND

OK Buster. As njackets said - how exactly does that mean Calzaghe was ducking powderpuff Ottke?

Ottke was making millions getting favourable decisions in Germany. Why would he fight Calzaghe?

Here's a few things for you -

BBC SPORT | Boxing | Ottke spurns Calzaghe

Even Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, said Ottke DID NOT want to fight Calzaghe.

Whether you believe it or not here's a Warren quote - "We made two career high offers to Ottke's camp to fight in Germany, even though we'd seen what had happened with (Robin) Reid and (Charles) Brewer. Both were refused without any negotiation. That told me all I needed to know." - Frank Warren

your right i dont believe any thing frank warren says, any time he speaks its that he made a career high offer......he has a rep for not being overly honest when it comes to these things

there was a interview where calzaghe says they wanted him to fight ottka in german, his reponse was...... brewer got robbed out there, and that even muhammed ali wouldn't get a points win in germany so he choose to not take the fight stating he didn't need to as he'd win due to ottkas lack of ability and it wouldn't prove anything.............i quess he felt he couldn't stop powder puff ottka

thats typical of joe, says one thing then later says another, just think back to the b-hop fight...........he said whos hopkins beaten...tarver, well whos tarver whats he ever done to be classed a big win... later he said after he beats hopkins he wants one more super fight and that would be roy jones or tarver, thats the same tarver he was putting doen earlier, you see waht i'm saying.............so i find it hard when him and warren talk to take them honestly. everyone has there own views. i've never called anyone lier on here, and have no reason to lie myself, a gain 000000000000000 from any of it weather he fights someone or not, i'm a fan of many boxer, if they win or lose it make no dif to me, i'm not a gambler so i gain no money nor lose it so have no need to lie about what i know or what i've read or watched a boxer say, just because i say something i heard your favorite boxer say which you dont like doesn't mean i'm saying about you so you shouldn't take it personal and get angry therefore call me or anyone else a lier

1. Calzaghe is FAR from being my favourite boxer. Fact.

2. I only get angry and take things personal in the "real" world. Fact.

3. You were clearly misinformed. So I apologise for calling you a liar

[Violent Demise]

OK Buster. As njackets said - how exactly does that mean Calzaghe was ducking powderpuff Ottke?

Ottke was making millions getting favourable decisions in Germany. Why would he fight Calzaghe?

Here's a few things for you -

BBC SPORT | Boxing | Ottke spurns Calzaghe

Even Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, said Ottke DID NOT want to fight Calzaghe.

Whether you believe it or not here's a Warren quote - "We made two career high offers to Ottke's camp to fight in Germany, even though we'd seen what had happened with (Robin) Reid and (Charles) Brewer. Both were refused without any negotiation. That told me all I needed to know." - Frank Warren

your right i dont believe any thing frank warren says, any time he speaks its that he made a career high offer......he has a rep for not being overly honest when it comes to these things

there was a interview where calzaghe says they wanted him to fight ottka in german, his reponse was...... brewer got robbed out there, and that even muhammed ali wouldn't get a points win in germany so he choose to not take the fight stating he didn't need to as he'd win due to ottkas lack of ability and it wouldn't prove anything.............i quess he felt he couldn't stop powder puff ottka

thats typical of joe, says one thing then later says another, just think back to the b-hop fight...........he said whos hopkins beaten...tarver, well whos tarver whats he ever done to be classed a big win... later he said after he beats hopkins he wants one more super fight and that would be roy jones or tarver, thats the same tarver he was putting doen earlier, you see waht i'm saying.............so i find it hard when him and warren talk to take them honestly. everyone has there own views. i've never called anyone lier on here, and have no reason to lie myself, a gain 000000000000000 from any of it weather he fights someone or not, i'm a fan of many boxer, if they win or lose it make no dif to me, i'm not a gambler so i gain no money nor lose it so have no need to lie about what i know or what i've read or watched a boxer say, just because i say something i heard your favorite boxer say which you dont like doesn't mean i'm saying about you so you shouldn't take it personal and get angry therefore call me or anyone else a lier

1. Calzaghe is FAR from being my favourite boxer. Fact.

2. I only get angry and take things personal in the "real" world. Fact.

3. You were clearly misinformed. So I apologise for calling you a liar

1. Calzaghe is your favorite person in the world. Fact

2. You can't get angry when you know your wrong. Fact

3. I got nothing for number 3.

[Fenster]

your right i dont believe any thing frank warren says, any time he speaks its that he made a career high offer......he has a rep for not being overly honest when it comes to these things

there was a interview where calzaghe says they wanted him to fight ottka in german, his reponse was...... brewer got robbed out there, and that even muhammed ali wouldn't get a points win in germany so he choose to not take the fight stating he didn't need to as he'd win due to ottkas lack of ability and it wouldn't prove anything.............i quess he felt he couldn't stop powder puff ottka

thats typical of joe, says one thing then later says another, just think back to the b-hop fight...........he said whos hopkins beaten...tarver, well whos tarver whats he ever done to be classed a big win... later he said after he beats hopkins he wants one more super fight and that would be roy jones or tarver, thats the same tarver he was putting doen earlier, you see waht i'm saying.............so i find it hard when him and warren talk to take them honestly. everyone has there own views. i've never called anyone lier on here, and have no reason to lie myself, a gain 000000000000000 from any of it weather he fights someone or not, i'm a fan of many boxer, if they win or lose it make no dif to me, i'm not a gambler so i gain no money nor lose it so have no need to lie about what i know or what i've read or watched a boxer say, just because i say something i heard your favorite boxer say which you dont like doesn't mean i'm saying about you so you shouldn't take it personal and get angry therefore call me or anyone else a lier

1. Calzaghe is FAR from being my favourite boxer. Fact.

2. I only get angry and take things personal in the "real" world. Fact.

3. You were clearly misinformed. So I apologise for calling you a liar

1. Calzaghe is your favorite person in the world. Fact

2. You can't get angry when you know your wrong. Fact

3. I got nothing for number 3.

1. Calzaghe is only my favourite person when educating you on his career. Fact.

2. That don't make sense. Fact.

3. Like all things VD.. Nothingness

[Violent Demise]

1. Calzaghe is FAR from being my favourite boxer. Fact.

2. I only get angry and take things personal in the "real" world. Fact.

3. You were clearly misinformed. So I apologise for calling you a liar

1. Calzaghe is your favorite person in the world. Fact

2. You can't get angry when you know your wrong. Fact

3. I got nothing for number 3.

1. Calzaghe is only my favourite person when educating you on his career. Fact.

2. That don't make sense. Fact.

3. Like all things VD.. Nothingness

Boo, boo. I expected more

[njackets]

[quote=NUCLEAR BULL;506678][quote=Fenster;506579]

there was a interview where calzaghe says they wanted him to fight ottka in german, his reponse was...... brewer got robbed out there, and that even muhammed ali wouldn't get a points win in germany so he choose to not take the fight stating he didn't need to as he'd win due to ottkas lack of ability and it wouldn't prove anything.............i quess he felt he couldn't stop powder puff ottka

thats typical of joe, says one thing then later says another, just think back to the b-hop fight...........he said whos hopkins beaten...tarver, well whos tarver whats he ever done to be classed a big win... later he said after he beats hopkins he wants one more super fight and that would be roy jones or tarver, thats the same tarver he was putting doen earlier, you see waht i'm saying.............so i find it hard when him and warren talk to take them honestly. everyone has there own views. i've never called anyone lier on here, and have no reason to lie myself, a gain 000000000000000 from any of it weather he fights someone or not, i'm a fan of many boxer, if they win or lose it make no dif to me, i'm not a gambler so i gain no money nor lose it so have no need to lie about what i know or what i've read or watched a boxer say, just because i say something i heard your favorite boxer say which you dont like doesn't mean i'm saying about you so you shouldn't take it personal and get angry therefore call me or anyone else a lier

2 b fair,thats a bit of a climb down from when yv been saying Joe outright would'nt fight Ottka.I knew myself there were circumstances behind it,but never knew the finer details,can u hounestly blame Joe 4 not wanting 2 go out 2 Germany?! Still dont know how u can put there reigns at SMW on the same level,did Ottka ever get anywere near a P4P list?! Granted there were better Boxers around at the time of Ottka prime,but even if he was around now,you'd have 2 b very generous 2 put him near a P4P list!

[BIG H]

Jones easily. I'm shocked the voting is so close. I didn't think there were that many idiots on this forum. Guess I was wrong.

Why? for beating who? Toney? coz he sure as sh1t didn't beat anybody else at SMW. Yes Jones is an ATG and yes he would very likely have beaten all the others at SMW, but he can't be 'The Greatest' unless he achived the most and he clearly did not (at this weight)

[NUCLEAR BULL]

i dont think ottka is the best the supermiddle division has seen and nither does many others esp joe calzaghe fans


1) i brought sven ottka in to the debate because he'd spent years as champ like joe

2) because he made 21 defences, just like joe, beating some of the same fighters as joe

3) he fought on home soil, never wanting to leave home, just like joe(take away the b-hop fight at light heavy)

4) he's as big a star in germany as joe is in wales

so if ottka isn't considered anywhere near the best then why do calzaghe fans insist there guy is so much better, tarnishing ottka as low level esp as they both turned down the chance to fight each other ( nither would go to the others country, and a nuetral ground couldnt be set up either, both it seems wanted home advantage)

roy jones and james toney would beat both at super middle with style

[Fenster]

i dont think ottka is the best the supermiddle division has seen and nither does many others esp joe calzaghe fans


1) i brought sven ottka in to the debate because he'd spent years as champ like joe

2) because he made 21 defences, just like joe, beating some of the same fighters as joe

3) he fought on home soil, never wanting to leave home, just like joe(take away the b-hop fight at light heavy)

4) he's as big a star in germany as joe is in wales

so if ottka isn't considered anywhere near the best then why do calzaghe fans insist there guy is so much better, tarnishing ottka as low level esp as they both turned down the chance to fight each other ( nither would go to the others country, and a nuetral ground couldnt be set up either, both it seems wanted home advantage)

roy jones and james toney would beat both at super middle with style

If you had ever seen Ottke fight you'd hate him more than you hate Joe. Well almost as much. Your hatred for Calzaghe is pretty sick

[Fenster]

1. Calzaghe is your favorite person in the world. Fact

2. You can't get angry when you know your wrong. Fact

3. I got nothing for number 3.

1. Calzaghe is only my favourite person when educating you on his career. Fact.

2. That don't make sense. Fact.

3. Like all things VD.. Nothingness

Boo, boo. I expected more

I need better material from you then. Fact.