Joe Calzaghe under the micoscope

[Kev]

Well if in addition to beating Barrera twice Jones also reigned for 10 years as an undefeated super bantamweight champ, made 21 consective defenses of his title, unified the entire division and won all four belts then moved up and beat the man at featherweight then I would happily put him as an all time great

I'm still awaiting reply to this post above. I think Game Set Match is about to be declared

Read the stats , lots of Calzaghe's oponants had already been beaten at top level , lots were total bums , Hopkins ,Kessler , were big names , and thats it , i accept Calzaghe is a top fighter , but why oh why did he fight so many soft touches ?
Also when you use Marciano as an example , remember 1 fact , Rocky was the only champion at the time.
Calzaghe held the WBO JOKE title for most of his reign with 3 other champions.
See my point Bilbo ?

It also makes me smile , a guy like Nigel Benn / James Toney etc could threaten an opponent " I'm going to knock you out " and for the most part in Benn's case he did.
Calzaghe is more a " I'll slap you around a bit and take you to a boring decision " lol
The famed Calzaghe " they cant take my power " was laughable as even pathetic fighters like Rick Thornberry who were KOED at lower levels , went the distance , even British standard fighters like Starie.

This post makes no sense Al. You criticise his wins over fighters who have previously lost whilst at the same time when he defeats unbeaten fighters like Lacy and Kessler you dismiss them as unproven and overratted

Calzaghe has beaten every man he's ever faced, his record is 100% perfect.

You simply cannot dimiss his resume, he's a proven champion and one of the very best fighters in the world. Trying to criticise every single win he's had is just plain hating. Did you see Kessler fight at the weekend, that KO was sick, the guy is a top notch operater. Wins over Beyer, Mundine, Andrade he was a tough tough opponent and Calzahghe gave him a boxing lesson.

[piye]

Joes world class amazing fighter (Slaps though); I want Roy to win but rate joe highly and admire what he has achieved.

[Mikkel_K]

Everytime Calzaghe is debated, we see the same arguments, and quite frankly I just dont get them. One side is saying that Calzaghe is the motherf****** man for beating 45 guys, while the other side tries to point out that most of these guys werent, well, all that great.

Yet what I fail to understand is 1) how people can say, he beat Will McIntyre, he must be an ATG (which is the consequence of touting the numerical argument), and 2) why people seem to think that because he beat the likes of Will McIntyre, he is not a great fighter. Surely, for any fighter out there, to win - and win in style even - is better than not doing so, and 45 wins must be better than, say, 25 wins? On the other hand just beating 45 guys do not make you an ATG, as witnessed by Sven Ottke.

[As for Bilbo's first since Rocky Marciano-statements, I'm pretty sure Ricardo Lopez would disagree]

Thomas Damgaard had a GREAT record fighting in Europe. Are you also ready to crown him?

Here are some of the top guys from 160-175 during Calzaghe's tenure:

Winky
Tito
Hopkins
Taylor
Tarver
Toney
Pavlik
Johnson
Dawson

Many people just find it odd that Calzaghe hasn't found his way into the ring with ANY of those guys during their primes.

I respect your views and your love for CalSlappy. I just wish Joe would stop hanging around nursing homes looking for opponents. it's unseemly.

First of all Damgaard never had a GREAT record. He had a couple of good wins at European-level, and a very entertaining style, but fought mostly bums, and was obviously on the decline for a few years before crossing the pond. But I guess that is way off-topic, as far as this thread is concerned...

I do think however you're clutching at straws here. I have never ever heard anyone suggest that Calzalghe should have fought Tito in his prime -he was a welterweight, remember? Toney, as Bilbo pointed out, was hardly in Calzaghe's division during Calzaghe's prime either. And if he had fought Dawson or Pavlik before 2007, it (too) would have been against a very untested opponents (and while you can knock Calzaghe's career, you simply cannot knock his recent opposition).

You're left with a list of Winky (who is also smallish, compared to Calzaghe), Hopkins (who he did fight - and who may have been past his prime, but certainly not shot), Taylor, Tarver and Johnson. Those three would surely be good additions to his resume, but does anyone really doubt that Calzaghe would beat them?

[Dark Lord Al]

Everytime Calzaghe is debated, we see the same arguments, and quite frankly I just dont get them. One side is saying that Calzaghe is the motherf****** man for beating 45 guys, while the other side tries to point out that most of these guys werent, well, all that great.

Yet what I fail to understand is 1) how people can say, he beat Will McIntyre, he must be an ATG (which is the consequence of touting the numerical argument), and 2) why people seem to think that because he beat the likes of Will McIntyre, he is not a great fighter. Surely, for any fighter out there, to win - and win in style even - is better than not doing so, and 45 wins must be better than, say, 25 wins? On the other hand just beating 45 guys do not make you an ATG, as witnessed by Sven Ottke.

[As for Bilbo's first since Rocky Marciano-statements, I'm pretty sure Ricardo Lopez would disagree]

Thomas Damgaard had a GREAT record fighting in Europe. Are you also ready to crown him?

Here are some of the top guys from 160-175 during Calzaghe's tenure:

Winky
Tito
Hopkins
Taylor
Tarver
Toney
Pavlik
Johnson
Dawson

Many people just find it odd that Calzaghe hasn't found his way into the ring with ANY of those guys during their primes.

I respect your views and your love for CalSlappy. I just wish Joe would stop hanging around nursing homes looking for opponents. it's unseemly.

First of all Damgaard never had a GREAT record. He had a couple of good wins at European-level, and a very entertaining style, but fought mostly bums, and was obviously on the decline for a few years before crossing the pond. But I guess that is way off-topic, as far as this thread is concerned...

I do think however you're clutching at straws here. I have never ever heard anyone suggest that Calzalghe should have fought Tito in his prime -he was a welterweight, remember? Toney, as Bilbo pointed out, was hardly in Calzaghe's division during Calzaghe's prime either. And if he had fought Dawson or Pavlik before 2007, it (too) would have been against a very untested opponents (and while you can knock Calzaghe's career, you simply cannot knock his recent opposition).

You're left with a list of Winky (who is also smallish, compared to Calzaghe), Hopkins (who he did fight - and who may have been past his prime, but certainly not shot), Taylor, Tarver and Johnson. Those three would surely be good additions to his resume, but does anyone really doubt that Calzaghe would beat them?

Does it matter ? if he didn't fight them then its irrelevant.
He spent the lions share of his career fighting bums , beat an old hopkins past his best , and fought RJJ when he had already been KOED on 2 occasions. which leaves Kessler , so what's your point ?

[alithegreatest786]

he reall lost to hopkins, and true boxing fans know it, those who prefer activity by slapping truly belive calzaghe won

[RozzySean]

I'm still awaiting reply to this post above. I think Game Set Match is about to be declared

Read the stats , lots of Calzaghe's oponants had already been beaten at top level , lots were total bums , Hopkins ,Kessler , were big names , and thats it , i accept Calzaghe is a top fighter , but why oh why did he fight so many soft touches ?
Also when you use Marciano as an example , remember 1 fact , Rocky was the only champion at the time.
Calzaghe held the WBO JOKE title for most of his reign with 3 other champions.
See my point Bilbo ?

It also makes me smile , a guy like Nigel Benn / James Toney etc could threaten an opponent " I'm going to knock you out " and for the most part in Benn's case he did.
Calzaghe is more a " I'll slap you around a bit and take you to a boring decision " lol
The famed Calzaghe " they cant take my power " was laughable as even pathetic fighters like Rick Thornberry who were KOED at lower levels , went the distance , even British standard fighters like Starie.

This post makes no sense Al. You criticise his wins over fighters who have previously lost whilst at the same time when he defeats unbeaten fighters like Lacy and Kessler you dismiss them as unproven and overratted

Calzaghe has beaten every man he's ever faced, his record is 100% perfect.

You simply cannot dimiss his resume, he's a proven champion and one of the very best fighters in the world. Trying to criticise every single win he's had is just plain hating. Did you see Kessler fight at the weekend, that KO was sick, the guy is a top notch operater. Wins over Beyer, Mundine, Andrade he was a tough tough opponent and Calzahghe gave him a boxing lesson.

Why not? His resume is not that great. He's a actually a better fighter than his resume shows. His resume is OK, but it's not what it should be for a fighter of his calibre.

Everybody gives him credit for the Kessler win. I do find it interesting that Joe was content to say at SMW defending the nearly worthless WBO belt when that division was one of the weakest in boxing. Once the division got strong (Bute, Kessler, Jermaine Taylor, Andrade, heck, even Carl Froch is better than most of defenses) he took the opportunity to fight an aging Hopkins and an aging Roy Jones. He takes fights with Manfredo, Ashira, and Salem. He could have been fighting Bute, Beyer, or even Mundine.

[ICB]

Read the stats , lots of Calzaghe's oponants had already been beaten at top level , lots were total bums , Hopkins ,Kessler , were big names , and thats it , i accept Calzaghe is a top fighter , but why oh why did he fight so many soft touches ?
Also when you use Marciano as an example , remember 1 fact , Rocky was the only champion at the time.
Calzaghe held the WBO JOKE title for most of his reign with 3 other champions.
See my point Bilbo ?

It also makes me smile , a guy like Nigel Benn / James Toney etc could threaten an opponent " I'm going to knock you out " and for the most part in Benn's case he did.
Calzaghe is more a " I'll slap you around a bit and take you to a boring decision " lol
The famed Calzaghe " they cant take my power " was laughable as even pathetic fighters like Rick Thornberry who were KOED at lower levels , went the distance , even British standard fighters like Starie.

This post makes no sense Al. You criticise his wins over fighters who have previously lost whilst at the same time when he defeats unbeaten fighters like Lacy and Kessler you dismiss them as unproven and overratted

Calzaghe has beaten every man he's ever faced, his record is 100% perfect.

You simply cannot dimiss his resume, he's a proven champion and one of the very best fighters in the world. Trying to criticise every single win he's had is just plain hating. Did you see Kessler fight at the weekend, that KO was sick, the guy is a top notch operater. Wins over Beyer, Mundine, Andrade he was a tough tough opponent and Calzahghe gave him a boxing lesson.

Why not? His resume is not that great. He's a actually a better fighter than his resume shows. His resume is OK, but it's not what it should be for a fighter of his calibre.

Everybody gives him credit for the Kessler win. I do find it interesting that Joe was content to say at SMW defending the nearly worthless WBO belt when that division was one of the weakest in boxing. Once the division got strong (Bute, Kessler, Jermaine Taylor, Andrade, heck, even Carl Froch is better than most of defenses) he took the opportunity to fight an aging Hopkins and an aging Roy Jones. He takes fights with Manfredo, Ashira, and Salem. He could have been fighting Bute, Beyer, or even Mundine.

Yea i found that funny too and also the fact that Joe Calzaghe, stated in the past he was going to move up to LHW years ago. Because he said making SMW was so hard and he had to starve himself ETC.

Then why didn't he move up in weight and fight RJJ or ETC, im pretty certain he would of got some big fights at that weightclass had he pursued more.

[Fenster]

Boxing is about MONEY.

Guys like Mundine and Beyer want BIG money to travel. Guys like Salem and Ashira cost peanuts.

Calzaghe-Hopkins/Jones is worth far more MONEY to them now than it would have been 10 years ago.

Calzaghe has only been recognised as top draw since 2006.

[kingfrnk]

Read the stats , lots of Calzaghe's oponants had already been beaten at top level , lots were total bums , Hopkins ,Kessler , were big names , and thats it , i accept Calzaghe is a top fighter , but why oh why did he fight so many soft touches ?
Also when you use Marciano as an example , remember 1 fact , Rocky was the only champion at the time.
Calzaghe held the WBO JOKE title for most of his reign with 3 other champions.
See my point Bilbo ?

It also makes me smile , a guy like Nigel Benn / James Toney etc could threaten an opponent " I'm going to knock you out " and for the most part in Benn's case he did.
Calzaghe is more a " I'll slap you around a bit and take you to a boring decision " lol
The famed Calzaghe " they cant take my power " was laughable as even pathetic fighters like Rick Thornberry who were KOED at lower levels , went the distance , even British standard fighters like Starie.

This post makes no sense Al. You criticise his wins over fighters who have previously lost whilst at the same time when he defeats unbeaten fighters like Lacy and Kessler you dismiss them as unproven and overratted

Calzaghe has beaten every man he's ever faced, his record is 100% perfect.

You simply cannot dimiss his resume, he's a proven champion and one of the very best fighters in the world. Trying to criticise every single win he's had is just plain hating. Did you see Kessler fight at the weekend, that KO was sick, the guy is a top notch operater. Wins over Beyer, Mundine, Andrade he was a tough tough opponent and Calzahghe gave him a boxing lesson.

Why not? His resume is not that great. He's a actually a better fighter than his resume shows. His resume is OK, but it's not what it should be for a fighter of his calibre.

Everybody gives him credit for the Kessler win. I do find it interesting that Joe was content to say at SMW defending the nearly worthless WBO belt when that division was one of the weakest in boxing. Once the division got strong (Bute, Kessler, Jermaine Taylor, Andrade, heck, even Carl Froch is better than most of defenses) he took the opportunity to fight an aging Hopkins and an aging Roy Jones. He takes fights with Manfredo, Ashira, and Salem. He could have been fighting Bute, Beyer, or even Mundine.

HMMMMM. you have a very good point.

[Kev]

Boxing is about MONEY.

Guys like Mundine and Beyer want BIG money to travel. Guys like Salem and Ashira cost peanuts.

Calzaghe-Hopkins/Jones is worth far more MONEY to them now than it would have been 10 years ago.

Calzaghe has only been recognised as top draw since 2006.

You know Fenster I'm done debating this with people.

Anyone who genuinely in their heart thinks that Calzaghe should have proven his greatness by staying at 168 to fight Bute, Beyer and Mundine rather than go on to fight Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones is just beyond reason imo.

People who are saying BHop is done according the Ring magazine he's the number 4 p4p fighter in the world

As for Kessler he's the RING CHAMPION at 168. He destroyed Marcus Beyer and easily beat Mundine, why in the world would Joe fight Beyer or Mundine? When he fought Lacy he was the RING NUMBER ONE CONTENDER at 168.

And people say he should have avoided these fights and instead fought Bute who almost got ktfo last week and Mundine who got KO'd by Sven Ottke



Seriously I still can't get over Rozzy Sean's suggestion that he should have stayed at 168 to fight Beyer?

Beyer got KO'd in 3 rounds by Kessler and was a decent but wholly ordinary world champ. He almost got ko'd by Danny Green until he was controversially saved, Bika was giving him problems until they managed to call that fight a no contest too.

Yet beating Beyer, who has been KTFO by Kesller, Mundine who got KTGO by OTTKE and Bute who almost got KTFO by Andrade are better opponents than B Hopkins and Roy Jones two of the greatest fighters of the past 20 years, both probably near the top 10 ALL TIME great list and who have beaten a whose who of boxing's elite.

Calzaghe should have turned down those fights and chose to build his legacy on Bute, Beyer and Mundine instead?

Sorry but that's the most retarded post I've ever read

[Fenster]

Boxing is about MONEY.

Guys like Mundine and Beyer want BIG money to travel. Guys like Salem and Ashira cost peanuts.

Calzaghe-Hopkins/Jones is worth far more MONEY to them now than it would have been 10 years ago.

Calzaghe has only been recognised as top draw since 2006.

You know Fenster I'm done debating this with people.

Anyone who genuinely in their heart thinks that Calzaghe should have proven his greatness by staying at 168 to fight Bute, Beyer and Mundine rather than go on to fight Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones is just beyond reason imo.

People who are saying BHop is done according the Ring magazine he's the number 4 p4p fighter in the world

As for Kessler he's the RING CHAMPION at 168. He destroyed Marcus Beyer and easily beat Mundine, why in the world would Joe fight Beyer or Mundine? When he fought Lacy he was the RING NUMBER ONE CONTENDER at 168.

And people say he should have avoided these fights and instead fought Bute who almost got ktfo last week and Mundine who got KO'd by Sven Ottke



Seriously I still can't get over Rozzy Sean's suggestion that he should have stayed at 168 to fight Beyer?

Beyer got KO'd in 3 rounds by Kessler and was a decent but wholly ordinary world champ. He almost got ko'd by Danny Green until he was controversially saved, Bika was giving him problems until they managed to call that fight a no contest too.

Yet beating Beyer, who has been KTFO by Kesller, Mundine who got KTGO by OTTKE and Bute who almost got KTFO by Andrade are better opponents than B Hopkins and Roy Jones two of the greatest fighters of the past 20 years, both probably near the top 10 ALL TIME great list and who have beaten a whose who of boxing's elite.

Calzaghe should have turned down those fights and chose to build his legacy on Bute, Beyer and Mundine instead?

Sorry but that's the most retarded post I've ever read

This debate is never ending. Only the sane get out

Had Calzaghe beat Mundine and Beyer i'm sure all the detrators would have ranked those wins WAY above the Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, etc. NO WAY would they have been thrown into the list of "bums"

[RozzySean]

Boxing is about MONEY.

Guys like Mundine and Beyer want BIG money to travel. Guys like Salem and Ashira cost peanuts.

Calzaghe-Hopkins/Jones is worth far more MONEY to them now than it would have been 10 years ago.

Calzaghe has only been recognised as top draw since 2006.

You know Fenster I'm done debating this with people.

Anyone who genuinely in their heart thinks that Calzaghe should have proven his greatness by staying at 168 to fight Bute, Beyer and Mundine rather than go on to fight Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones is just beyond reason imo.

People who are saying BHop is done according the Ring magazine he's the number 4 p4p fighter in the world

As for Kessler he's the RING CHAMPION at 168. He destroyed Marcus Beyer and easily beat Mundine, why in the world would Joe fight Beyer or Mundine? When he fought Lacy he was the RING NUMBER ONE CONTENDER at 168.

And people say he should have avoided these fights and instead fought Bute who almost got ktfo last week and Mundine who got KO'd by Sven Ottke



Seriously I still can't get over Rozzy Sean's suggestion that he should have stayed at 168 to fight Beyer?

Beyer got KO'd in 3 rounds by Kessler and was a decent but wholly ordinary world champ. He almost got ko'd by Danny Green until he was controversially saved, Bika was giving him problems until they managed to call that fight a no contest too.

Yet beating Beyer, who has been KTFO by Kesller, Mundine who got KTGO by OTTKE and Bute who almost got KTFO by Andrade are better opponents than B Hopkins and Roy Jones two of the greatest fighters of the past 20 years, both probably near the top 10 ALL TIME great list and who have beaten a whose who of boxing's elite.

Calzaghe should have turned down those fights and chose to build his legacy on Bute, Beyer and Mundine instead?

Sorry but that's the most retarded post I've ever read

He should have fought Beyer or Mundine BEFORE the Lacy and Kessler fights, back when he was fighting bums in 2004 and 2005. He could have fought Bute in 2006 or 2007 when he was fighting Manfredo and Bika. By then Bute was a more credible opponent than either one. The version of Beyer that Kessler destroyed was an older Markus Beyer. Beyer had been hanging around as a top 10 SMW for years before the Kessler fight and Calzaghe ignored him and fought Kabary Salem, et alia.

You totally misunderstood my post, and if you can explain to me why it was better for Joe to fight all those bums instead of much better, legit top ten opposition at several points in his career, I'll listen.

[Kev]

Boxing is about MONEY.

Guys like Mundine and Beyer want BIG money to travel. Guys like Salem and Ashira cost peanuts.

Calzaghe-Hopkins/Jones is worth far more MONEY to them now than it would have been 10 years ago.

Calzaghe has only been recognised as top draw since 2006.

You know Fenster I'm done debating this with people.

Anyone who genuinely in their heart thinks that Calzaghe should have proven his greatness by staying at 168 to fight Bute, Beyer and Mundine rather than go on to fight Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones is just beyond reason imo.

People who are saying BHop is done according the Ring magazine he's the number 4 p4p fighter in the world

As for Kessler he's the RING CHAMPION at 168. He destroyed Marcus Beyer and easily beat Mundine, why in the world would Joe fight Beyer or Mundine? When he fought Lacy he was the RING NUMBER ONE CONTENDER at 168.

And people say he should have avoided these fights and instead fought Bute who almost got ktfo last week and Mundine who got KO'd by Sven Ottke



Seriously I still can't get over Rozzy Sean's suggestion that he should have stayed at 168 to fight Beyer?

Beyer got KO'd in 3 rounds by Kessler and was a decent but wholly ordinary world champ. He almost got ko'd by Danny Green until he was controversially saved, Bika was giving him problems until they managed to call that fight a no contest too.

Yet beating Beyer, who has been KTFO by Kesller, Mundine who got KTGO by OTTKE and Bute who almost got KTFO by Andrade are better opponents than B Hopkins and Roy Jones two of the greatest fighters of the past 20 years, both probably near the top 10 ALL TIME great list and who have beaten a whose who of boxing's elite.

Calzaghe should have turned down those fights and chose to build his legacy on Bute, Beyer and Mundine instead?

Sorry but that's the most retarded post I've ever read

He should have fought Beyer or Mundine BEFORE the Lacy and Kessler fights, back when he was fighting bums in 2004 and 2005. He could have fought Bute in 2006 or 2007 when he was fighting Manfredo and Bika. By then Bute was a more credible opponent than either one. The version of Beyer that Kessler destroyed was an older Markus Beyer. Beyer had been hanging around as a top 10 SMW for years before the Kessler fight and Calzaghe ignored him and fought Kabary Salem, et alia.

You totally misunderstood my post, and if you can explain to me why it was better for Joe to fight all those bums instead of much better, legit top ten opposition at several points in his career, I'll listen.

So which version of Beyer would you like Joe to have fought, the 2005 version of Markus Beyer who got knocked around the ring and battered by Danny Green or the one that got ko'd by Glen Catley in 2000?

As for Bute in 2006 what had he done then? He fought Jeff Lacy when he was unbeaten, in his physical prime and regarding as THE man he must face but when he beat him we were told Lacy in fact was just shit.

Had he beaten Bute in 2006 you think he'd be regarded any differently?

He took on Mario Veit twice who was unbeaten and ruined him instead.

My point is that when a fighter is unbeaten but unproven you really don't know how good they are. If Joe beats an unbeaten fighter then 'obviously' it's because they were in retrospect shit, but the one's he doesn't fight, they are the great ones.

I guess Joe has been lucky with his crystal ball in picking the unbeaten opponents who turn out to be crap after all whilst avoiding those who are great.

[RozzySean]

Yeah, he fought Veit, but what about the other load of crap that he fought? Beyer, Bute, and Mundine were all way better than the guys he fought.

[Fenster]

Yeah, he fought Veit, but what about the other load of crap that he fought? Beyer, Bute, and Mundine were all way better than the guys he fought.

You're being silly with the Bute business. When were they EVER likely to fight?
Has Bute EVER even mentioned Calzaghe? He has only just moved out of the novices - a step above Froch.

And what you need to understand is - it takes TWO to tango. Did it ever occur to you that guys like Mundine and Beyer, that could earn good money defending their belts in their own country, might not have WANTED to fight Calzaghe?