~ A Message to Referee Marlon B. Wright ~ (Ref. for Andrade-Bute)

[CFH]

This is a genuine question, where in the IBF rules does it state that following a KD at the end of the fight the fighter must take steps forward etc. to prove he can continue? The only relevant rule I have seen is (I think) rule 6, which states that if I fighter is KD'd at the end of the fight the count will continue until his gloves leave the canvas.

[Mikkel_K]

This is a genuine question, where in the IBF rules does it state that following a KD at the end of the fight the fighter must take steps forward etc. to prove he can continue? The only relevant rule I have seen is (I think) rule 6, which states that if I fighter is KD'd at the end of the fight the count will continue until his gloves leave the canvas.

My understanding is that it follows directly from the 'cannot be saved by the bell in any round rule'; i.e. a fighter must be fit to continue, even if there is no actual time left on the clock (and the rule 6, you mention also states that the fight was not over at the 3min mark).

Personally I dont think Andrade necessarily won that fight, because none of us actually know what would have happened if the count had been done properly, and Bute been asked to step forward and clear hands. He was up before the 10 count, even without Wright's sheananigans, but he certainly did not look like he could walk forward to me. In any case the referee did handle this absolutely terrible, robbing us from knowing who really should have won.

As for Bilbo's comments that being pedantic in one are should lead to refs being pedantic in others (or then not at all), well there is a helluva difference between a ref protecting the fighters in the ring - his job - and a ref nitpicking technicalities. One thing might cost a fighter his life, the other... not so much.

Finally, I disagree with the notion that it would have been controversial in any case (a view I saw Dan Rafael subscribe to too btw). If the fight had been stopped before the knockdown, and yes I do think a case can be made for this, then absolutely it would have been controversial. If the fight was stopped because Lucian Bute received a count, was asked to walk forward and clear hands and failed to do this, then it might have been dramatic, but surely it wouldnt be controversial.

[CFH]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

[Fenster]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

[CFH]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

[Fenster]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

I think the rule makes sense.

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

The ref was poor. Andrade was unlucky.

[CFH]

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

I think the rule makes sense.

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

The ref was poor. Andrade was unlucky.

Again, we are in complete agreement. If there was even ten seconds left in the fight, then stop it, but the bell had rang and the fight had ended when Bute made it to his feet and his gloves had cleared the canvas.

I think with a different ref there may well have been a different outcome as Bute would not have been allowed to hold/foul all night, but I think the decision as the end of the fight not to call a TKO on Bute was completely correct.

I want to see a rematch so we can put all these questions to bed.

[Mikkel_K]

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

But seriously, and I'm asking in all honesty here, can you really say you beat the count, if you are not fit to continue? To me beating the count means getting up and ready before the count is up. But is that just me, or is there an actual definition somewhere?