Joe Calzaghe under the micoscope

[ICB]

One thing i'd like to know is why Joe Calzaghe decided to fight Charles Brewer, who was stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols. So why did he not fight Antwun Echols ? i would of gave him credit for that win.

[Tysonbruno]

i remember their been talk of him fighting Atwun Echols and Syd vanderpool but think Calzaghe either pulled out with a broken nail or made a match with somebody who would fallover or fall asleep under a slapfest for 12 rounds.

[RozzySean]

Yeah, he fought Veit, but what about the other load of crap that he fought? Beyer, Bute, and Mundine were all way better than the guys he fought.

You're being silly with the Bute business. When were they EVER likely to fight?
Has Bute EVER even mentioned Calzaghe? He has only just moved out of the novices - a step above Froch.

And what you need to understand is - it takes TWO to tango. Did it ever occur to you that guys like Mundine and Beyer, that could earn good money defending their belts in their own country, might not have WANTED to fight Calzaghe?

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

[Fenster]

Yeah, he fought Veit, but what about the other load of crap that he fought? Beyer, Bute, and Mundine were all way better than the guys he fought.

You're being silly with the Bute business. When were they EVER likely to fight?
Has Bute EVER even mentioned Calzaghe? He has only just moved out of the novices - a step above Froch.

And what you need to understand is - it takes TWO to tango. Did it ever occur to you that guys like Mundine and Beyer, that could earn good money defending their belts in their own country, might not have WANTED to fight Calzaghe?

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

Beyer got a HUGE money cut against Kessler. A career high payday. Do you think it was a coincidence he retired after that fight (i know he's back)? I'm sure he wouldn't have minded Calzaghe retiring him for the money he got either.

I think you're just being petty with Bute. Compared with Calzaghe, Bute is a nobody novice, he's NEVER even been on TV in Britain. Has he ever fought outside Canada? I've NEVER heard of a possible fight between the two. I've never heard Bute mention Calzaghe. And I don't understand WHY you think Bute's people would be in such a hurry to chance ruining him?

Calzaghe ducked Bute. Good luck with that one.

I agree the Manfredo fight was utter shit. Pathetic. Calzaghe got tons of deserved criticism for that. I'm not even gonna try and justify it by Manfredo's "contender" fame, or the fact they shifted 30,000+ tickets for a mismatch. I agree it was crap.

[Andre]

One thing i'd like to know is why Joe Calzaghe decided to fight Charles Brewer, who was stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols. So why did he not fight Antwun Echols ? i would of gave him credit for that win.

That was pretty gutsy of Antwun to come back and do that but also a bit lucky too in that stoppage. I thought Brewer may have fought back out of that his arms were still up leaning back into the ropes taking a few clean for sure, but he wasnt going anywhere for a while and he was still intentionally bending with the wind so to speak.

Could have been interesting if Joe had fought Antwun and yet look what Anthony Mundine eventually did with him and noone rates him either cause of his big mouth and getting caught by okkte that time in the temple by farting around in front of a pro fighter ,making a show of it, after owning Okkte in every round prior to it!

The analogy that he beat him so that means the other will beat the next even easier doesnt work well here with these different styles.

[Kev]

Yeah, he fought Veit, but what about the other load of crap that he fought? Beyer, Bute, and Mundine were all way better than the guys he fought.

You're being silly with the Bute business. When were they EVER likely to fight?
Has Bute EVER even mentioned Calzaghe? He has only just moved out of the novices - a step above Froch.

And what you need to understand is - it takes TWO to tango. Did it ever occur to you that guys like Mundine and Beyer, that could earn good money defending their belts in their own country, might not have WANTED to fight Calzaghe?

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

Well first of all it's well known that Beyer wanted nothing to do with any of the top champions at 168 let alone Calzaghe.

He took the Kessler fight for the payday. He was barely able to hold on to the title as it was, almost losing it to nobodies so he took a final payday and travelled to Denmark to basically hand the title over to Kessler. He never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe at any time.

Calzaghe fighting Manfredo made far more business sense than a fight with Bute.

Calzaghe had in mind at this point breaking into the American box office like Hatton and in securing mega fights with Hopkins and Jones, the kind of huge box office stars and legendary fighters that any pro would want on their record.

To take on a completely unknown and potentially dangerous Canadian for absolutely no gain whatsover would have been a stupid move.

He fought Manfredo because he was well known in both America and the US.

You do realise that boxing is a business as well for these guys right?

I mean seriously, if you were Joe and you were looking down the line to career high paydays against American legends and you were looking to build your reputation in the US like Hatton did who would YOU have fought?

From a common sense perspective Manfredo was a great choice, big name in the US, not much risk.

To fight Bute instead of Manfredo would have lost Calzaghe a lot of money. For a start Manfredo was a sellout in the arena and the Americans were interested.

The Americans wouldn't have cared about Bute, Beyer or any other non high profile American.

Why do you think Roy Jones took on Felix Trinidad? Big name, little risk, lots of money, great publicity and a fight he was hugely favoured to win, so not jeapordise a fight with Joe.

Do you think Jones should have faced Dawson or Glen Johnson again instead of Trinidad, choosing to fight a tougher opponent, for far less money and with a real risk of jeapordising future paydays against Calzaghe?

[RozzySean]

You're being silly with the Bute business. When were they EVER likely to fight?
Has Bute EVER even mentioned Calzaghe? He has only just moved out of the novices - a step above Froch.

And what you need to understand is - it takes TWO to tango. Did it ever occur to you that guys like Mundine and Beyer, that could earn good money defending their belts in their own country, might not have WANTED to fight Calzaghe?

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

Beyer got a HUGE money cut against Kessler. A career high payday. Do you think it was a coincidence he retired after that fight (i know he's back)? I'm sure he wouldn't have minded Calzaghe retiring him for the money he got either.

I think you're just being petty with Bute. Compared with Calzaghe, Bute is a nobody novice, he's NEVER even been on TV in Britain. Has he ever fought outside Canada? I've NEVER heard of a possible fight between the two. I've never heard Bute mention Calzaghe. And I don't understand WHY you think Bute's people would be in such a hurry to chance ruining him?

Calzaghe ducked Bute. Good luck with that one.

I agree the Manfredo fight was utter shit. Pathetic. Calzaghe got tons of deserved criticism for that. I'm not even gonna try and justify it by Manfredo's "contender" fame, or the fact they shifted 30,000+ tickets for a mismatch. I agree it was crap.

I never said, he DUCKED Bute. I was argue that he (or even Froch) would have been a better fight than freakin Manfredo. I'm not even being petty. I'm giving an example of the way Calzaghe has conducted his career, fighting the Manfredos, Kabary Salems, and Mger Mkrchians of the world. I'm even saying that he "ducked" anybody. He just didn't bother to fight them because he could get paid defending that stupid WBO trinket against third rate fighters. For years, he never made a reasonable attempt to unify. He never thought of abandoning his belt because the WBO's offering of manitory challengers was a joke. He held the belt fighting as many or more C-grade fighters than real contenders. They have been shifting tickets on mismatches for years with Calzaghe. That's exactly my point.

He gets credit, in this order for these fights:

He's fought two A-level fighters

Kessler, Hopkins

Here are the B-grades
Reid B+, Eubank (because he was shot, he falls here) B+, Lacy B, Sheika B , Mitchell B-, Bika B -, Veit C+.

The rest are crap, and notice, half of the decent names, including the two best, are in the last couple of years.

That's a good resume. Not a great one. And that's too bad, because he's a great fighter.

Let me put out a GREAT resume. Look at James Toney's resume at SMW and MW - Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum 2x, Iran Barkley, Reggie Johnson (prime),Charles Williams, oh, and a loss to an up and coming MW champ named Roy Jones Jr. Toss in Merqui Sosa and Tim Littles for fun.

That's a great resume.

[RozzySean]

You're being silly with the Bute business. When were they EVER likely to fight?
Has Bute EVER even mentioned Calzaghe? He has only just moved out of the novices - a step above Froch.

And what you need to understand is - it takes TWO to tango. Did it ever occur to you that guys like Mundine and Beyer, that could earn good money defending their belts in their own country, might not have WANTED to fight Calzaghe?

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

Well first of all it's well known that Beyer wanted nothing to do with any of the top champions at 168 let alone Calzaghe.

He took the Kessler fight for the payday. He was barely able to hold on to the title as it was, almost losing it to nobodies so he took a final payday and travelled to Denmark to basically hand the title over to Kessler. He never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe at any time.

Calzaghe fighting Manfredo made far more business sense than a fight with Bute.

Calzaghe had in mind at this point breaking into the American box office like Hatton and in securing mega fights with Hopkins and Jones, the kind of huge box office stars and legendary fighters that any pro would want on their record.

To take on a completely unknown and potentially dangerous Canadian for absolutely no gain whatsover would have been a stupid move.

He fought Manfredo because he was well known in both America and the US.

You do realise that boxing is a business as well for these guys right?

I mean seriously, if you were Joe and you were looking down the line to career high paydays against American legends and you were looking to build your reputation in the US like Hatton did who would YOU have fought?

From a common sense perspective Manfredo was a great choice, big name in the US, not much risk.

To fight Bute instead of Manfredo would have lost Calzaghe a lot of money. For a start Manfredo was a sellout in the arena and the Americans were interested.

The Americans wouldn't have cared about Bute, Beyer or any other non high profile American.

Why do you think Roy Jones took on Felix Trinidad? Big name, little risk, lots of money, great publicity and a fight he was hugely favoured to win, so not jeapordise a fight with Joe.

Do you think Jones should have faced Dawson or Glen Johnson again instead of Trinidad, choosing to fight a tougher opponent, for far less money and with a real risk of jeapordising future paydays against Calzaghe?

So Kessler should get no credit for his destruction of Beyer because Beyer was just in it for a final payday, right?

If I were Calzaghe and I were looking to a splash and big money in the US, I would have started earlier so I didn't need to fight a guy known from a reality TV show.

If Calzaghe had made some trips to the US earlier in his career, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in trying to get recognized in the States fighting Manfredo. Example - he could have come to the US to fight Sheika or Brewer or even Lacy, but he would have made less $$$ in the short term, no doubt, but he would have been investing building a reputation in the States. The Lacy fight could have been made in Tampa or even New York and it would have been a very good gate. I mean, Hatton came to the US and fought a credible beltholder, moving up in weight. That's seems like the way to do it.

Calzaghe made a choice to ignore the US market until the end of his career and it has cost him. So now he needs the Jones fight as a last big payday.

Calzaghe has almost always taken the most practical, business minded path, risking as little as possible, staying in his comfort zone as much as possible. He had a short term view of things for a long time, and now he's trying to make up for lost time. Roy Jones did the same thing once he got to a certain point, absolutely, and I call him out on it, too. I understand why Calzaghe made the choices he made, but in the end, it has left big gaps. I'm a fan. I'm not a hater. I'm pretty objective about this.

If he fights Chad Dawson after the Jones fight, I will forgive him all his past transgressions against boxing fans and nominate him for a "Brass Balls" award.

[HattonTheHammer]

Some of JCs previous endeavours have never given him the ultimate respect he deserved from those particular wins.

People rant on about the eubank fight like it was the night JC pulled out all the stops ala hatton/tszyu but at the time eubank was a spent force and calzaghe was merely doing what he had been the previous few years only on a bigger stage.

Nobody ever mentions how he blew away byron mitchell, tactically out worked the likes of kessler and completely bullied jeff lacy for 12 solid rounds

[Fenster]

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

Beyer got a HUGE money cut against Kessler. A career high payday. Do you think it was a coincidence he retired after that fight (i know he's back)? I'm sure he wouldn't have minded Calzaghe retiring him for the money he got either.

I think you're just being petty with Bute. Compared with Calzaghe, Bute is a nobody novice, he's NEVER even been on TV in Britain. Has he ever fought outside Canada? I've NEVER heard of a possible fight between the two. I've never heard Bute mention Calzaghe. And I don't understand WHY you think Bute's people would be in such a hurry to chance ruining him?

Calzaghe ducked Bute. Good luck with that one.

I agree the Manfredo fight was utter shit. Pathetic. Calzaghe got tons of deserved criticism for that. I'm not even gonna try and justify it by Manfredo's "contender" fame, or the fact they shifted 30,000+ tickets for a mismatch. I agree it was crap.

I never said, he DUCKED Bute. I was argue that he (or even Froch) would have been a better fight than freakin Manfredo. I'm not even being petty. I'm giving an example of the way Calzaghe has conducted his career, fighting the Manfredos, Kabary Salems, and Mger Mkrchians of the world. I'm even saying that he "ducked" anybody. He just didn't bother to fight them because he could get paid defending that stupid WBO trinket against third rate fighters. For years, he never made a reasonable attempt to unify. He never thought of abandoning his belt because the WBO's offering of manitory challengers was a joke. He held the belt fighting as many or more C-grade fighters than real contenders. They have been shifting tickets on mismatches for years with Calzaghe. That's exactly my point.

He gets credit, in this order for these fights:

He's fought two A-level fighters

Kessler, Hopkins

Here are the B-grades
Reid B+, Eubank (because he was shot, he falls here) B+, Lacy B, Sheika B , Mitchell B-, Bika B -, Veit C+.

The rest are crap, and notice, half of the decent names, including the two best, are in the last couple of years.

That's a good resume. Not a great one. And that's too bad, because he's a great fighter.

Let me put out a GREAT resume. Look at James Toney's resume at SMW and MW - Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum 2x, Iran Barkley, Reggie Johnson (prime),Charles Williams, oh, and a loss to an up and coming MW champ named Roy Jones Jr. Toss in Merqui Sosa and Tim Littles for fun.

That's a great resume.

Eubank fought one of his most impressive fights after Calzaghe. You can't say he was "shot." He took the fight at late-ish notice and had to struggle to get the weight off (that's the excuse i'm sure you was looking for ). Calzaghe had never been past 8 rounds (we can ignore that fact).

I think Toney was a great fighter. Those are some great wins (i'm sure if someone was petty enough they could take the form apart ). The majority of Toney's wins must have been against CRAP too, no?

[Fenster]

So only third rate fighters were willing to take on Calzaghe? The second rate ones didn't want any part of him? If Beyer was willing to fight Kessler, I doubt he would have been unwilling to fight Calzaghe given the chance.

As for Bute, in April 2007, Calzaghe fought Manfredo. Two months later Bute fought Bika. He had already stopped Salem in 8, with whom Joe went the distance the previous year. Sure, Bute was just a knotch up from prospect at that point, but he was a legit top 10 MWW at the time, if I remember correctly, he was ranked about 6th or 7th then. Why is it crazy to think they could have offered him that fight instead of Manfredo? Are you saying that Bute hadn't done more than Manfredo at that point to deserve a shot? Would that not have been a better fight for the fans and a better show case of his skills? Since when does it require calling somebody out to make a fight? Manfredo certainly wassn't calling him out. And, in Bute's next fight, he beat Bika probably more easily than Calzaghe did. Bute would have been a good choice for the Spring 2007 defense if Calzaghe was interested in giving the fans a decent fight. Joe would have won, but it would been an interesting and meaningful win.

Even offering that spring 2007 fight to Froch would have been more meaningful than dragging Manfredo to Wales. I suppose you think Froch would have turned that down?

Well first of all it's well known that Beyer wanted nothing to do with any of the top champions at 168 let alone Calzaghe.

He took the Kessler fight for the payday. He was barely able to hold on to the title as it was, almost losing it to nobodies so he took a final payday and travelled to Denmark to basically hand the title over to Kessler. He never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe at any time.

Calzaghe fighting Manfredo made far more business sense than a fight with Bute.

Calzaghe had in mind at this point breaking into the American box office like Hatton and in securing mega fights with Hopkins and Jones, the kind of huge box office stars and legendary fighters that any pro would want on their record.

To take on a completely unknown and potentially dangerous Canadian for absolutely no gain whatsover would have been a stupid move.

He fought Manfredo because he was well known in both America and the US.

You do realise that boxing is a business as well for these guys right?

I mean seriously, if you were Joe and you were looking down the line to career high paydays against American legends and you were looking to build your reputation in the US like Hatton did who would YOU have fought?

From a common sense perspective Manfredo was a great choice, big name in the US, not much risk.

To fight Bute instead of Manfredo would have lost Calzaghe a lot of money. For a start Manfredo was a sellout in the arena and the Americans were interested.

The Americans wouldn't have cared about Bute, Beyer or any other non high profile American.

Why do you think Roy Jones took on Felix Trinidad? Big name, little risk, lots of money, great publicity and a fight he was hugely favoured to win, so not jeapordise a fight with Joe.

Do you think Jones should have faced Dawson or Glen Johnson again instead of Trinidad, choosing to fight a tougher opponent, for far less money and with a real risk of jeapordising future paydays against Calzaghe?

So Kessler should get no credit for his destruction of Beyer because Beyer was just in it for a final payday, right?

If I were Calzaghe and I were looking to a splash and big money in the US, I would have started earlier so I didn't need to fight a guy known from a reality TV show.

If Calzaghe had made some trips to the US earlier in his career, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in trying to get recognized in the States fighting Manfredo. Example - he could have come to the US to fight Sheika or Brewer or even Lacy, but he would have made less $$$ in the short term, no doubt, but he would have been investing building a reputation in the States. The Lacy fight could have been made in Tampa or even New York and it would have been a very good gate. I mean, Hatton came to the US and fought a credible beltholder, moving up in weight. That's seems like the way to do it.

Calzaghe made a choice to ignore the US market until the end of his career and it has cost him. So now he needs the Jones fight as a last big payday.

Calzaghe has almost always taken the most practical, business minded path, risking as little as possible, staying in his comfort zone as much as possible. He had a short term view of things for a long time, and now he's trying to make up for lost time. Roy Jones did the same thing once he got to a certain point, absolutely, and I call him out on it, too. I understand why Calzaghe made the choices he made, but in the end, it has left big gaps. I'm a fan. I'm not a hater. I'm pretty objective about this.

If he fights Chad Dawson after the Jones fight, I will forgive him all his past transgressions against boxing fans and nominate him for a "Brass Balls" award.

You're saying a professional boxer that is 45-0, top three ranked P4P, a multi-millionaire, just beat an all-time GREAT and signing out against another - has made BAD career choices?

[RozzySean]

Beyer got a HUGE money cut against Kessler. A career high payday. Do you think it was a coincidence he retired after that fight (i know he's back)? I'm sure he wouldn't have minded Calzaghe retiring him for the money he got either.

I think you're just being petty with Bute. Compared with Calzaghe, Bute is a nobody novice, he's NEVER even been on TV in Britain. Has he ever fought outside Canada? I've NEVER heard of a possible fight between the two. I've never heard Bute mention Calzaghe. And I don't understand WHY you think Bute's people would be in such a hurry to chance ruining him?

Calzaghe ducked Bute. Good luck with that one.

I agree the Manfredo fight was utter shit. Pathetic. Calzaghe got tons of deserved criticism for that. I'm not even gonna try and justify it by Manfredo's "contender" fame, or the fact they shifted 30,000+ tickets for a mismatch. I agree it was crap.

I never said, he DUCKED Bute. I was argue that he (or even Froch) would have been a better fight than freakin Manfredo. I'm not even being petty. I'm giving an example of the way Calzaghe has conducted his career, fighting the Manfredos, Kabary Salems, and Mger Mkrchians of the world. I'm even saying that he "ducked" anybody. He just didn't bother to fight them because he could get paid defending that stupid WBO trinket against third rate fighters. For years, he never made a reasonable attempt to unify. He never thought of abandoning his belt because the WBO's offering of manitory challengers was a joke. He held the belt fighting as many or more C-grade fighters than real contenders. They have been shifting tickets on mismatches for years with Calzaghe. That's exactly my point.

He gets credit, in this order for these fights:

He's fought two A-level fighters

Kessler, Hopkins

Here are the B-grades
Reid B+, Eubank (because he was shot, he falls here) B+, Lacy B, Sheika B , Mitchell B-, Bika B -, Veit C+.

The rest are crap, and notice, half of the decent names, including the two best, are in the last couple of years.

That's a good resume. Not a great one. And that's too bad, because he's a great fighter.

Let me put out a GREAT resume. Look at James Toney's resume at SMW and MW - Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum 2x, Iran Barkley, Reggie Johnson (prime),Charles Williams, oh, and a loss to an up and coming MW champ named Roy Jones Jr. Toss in Merqui Sosa and Tim Littles for fun.

That's a great resume.

Eubank fought one of his most impressive fights after Calzaghe. You can't say he was "shot." He took the fight at late-ish notice and had to struggle to get the weight off (that's the excuse i'm sure you was looking for ). Calzaghe had never been past 8 rounds (we can ignore that fact).

I think Toney was a great fighter. Those are some great wins (i'm sure if someone was petty enough they could take the form apart ). The majority of Toney's wins must have been against CRAP too, no?

So, in other words, you are admitting that Calzaghe beat a Eubank who was far from 100%. You know it, but you don't want to admit that it matters.

And sure, Toney fought a lot of crap. He was also fighting every two to three months for a stretch, sometimes even in back to back months. Toney fought where ever, whenever he could for a stretch. After the Iran Barkley fight, he fought 13 fights in two years, with the last one being Roy Jones. Joe wouldn't have bones in his hands if he fought that much. James Toney fought more rounds than Calzaghe has sparred.

If Calzaghe goes all the way up to Cruiser and beats a guy as good as Jirov was at CW, we can talk. Add up all Toney's wins against quality opposition and it will come out to nearly the total of Calzaghe's fights.

[ICB]

Well first of all it's well known that Beyer wanted nothing to do with any of the top champions at 168 let alone Calzaghe.

He took the Kessler fight for the payday. He was barely able to hold on to the title as it was, almost losing it to nobodies so he took a final payday and travelled to Denmark to basically hand the title over to Kessler. He never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe at any time.

Calzaghe fighting Manfredo made far more business sense than a fight with Bute.

Calzaghe had in mind at this point breaking into the American box office like Hatton and in securing mega fights with Hopkins and Jones, the kind of huge box office stars and legendary fighters that any pro would want on their record.

To take on a completely unknown and potentially dangerous Canadian for absolutely no gain whatsover would have been a stupid move.

He fought Manfredo because he was well known in both America and the US.

You do realise that boxing is a business as well for these guys right?

I mean seriously, if you were Joe and you were looking down the line to career high paydays against American legends and you were looking to build your reputation in the US like Hatton did who would YOU have fought?

From a common sense perspective Manfredo was a great choice, big name in the US, not much risk.

To fight Bute instead of Manfredo would have lost Calzaghe a lot of money. For a start Manfredo was a sellout in the arena and the Americans were interested.

The Americans wouldn't have cared about Bute, Beyer or any other non high profile American.

Why do you think Roy Jones took on Felix Trinidad? Big name, little risk, lots of money, great publicity and a fight he was hugely favoured to win, so not jeapordise a fight with Joe.

Do you think Jones should have faced Dawson or Glen Johnson again instead of Trinidad, choosing to fight a tougher opponent, for far less money and with a real risk of jeapordising future paydays against Calzaghe?

So Kessler should get no credit for his destruction of Beyer because Beyer was just in it for a final payday, right?

If I were Calzaghe and I were looking to a splash and big money in the US, I would have started earlier so I didn't need to fight a guy known from a reality TV show.

If Calzaghe had made some trips to the US earlier in his career, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in trying to get recognized in the States fighting Manfredo. Example - he could have come to the US to fight Sheika or Brewer or even Lacy, but he would have made less $$$ in the short term, no doubt, but he would have been investing building a reputation in the States. The Lacy fight could have been made in Tampa or even New York and it would have been a very good gate. I mean, Hatton came to the US and fought a credible beltholder, moving up in weight. That's seems like the way to do it.

Calzaghe made a choice to ignore the US market until the end of his career and it has cost him. So now he needs the Jones fight as a last big payday.

Calzaghe has almost always taken the most practical, business minded path, risking as little as possible, staying in his comfort zone as much as possible. He had a short term view of things for a long time, and now he's trying to make up for lost time. Roy Jones did the same thing once he got to a certain point, absolutely, and I call him out on it, too. I understand why Calzaghe made the choices he made, but in the end, it has left big gaps. I'm a fan. I'm not a hater. I'm pretty objective about this.

If he fights Chad Dawson after the Jones fight, I will forgive him all his past transgressions against boxing fans and nominate him for a "Brass Balls" award.

You're saying a professional boxer that is 45-0, top three ranked P4P, a multi-millionaire, just beat an all-time GREAT and signing out against another - has made BAD career choices?

He could of gone to the USA alot earlier and he could of moved up, to LHW years ago and have been a much bigger star, and made alot more money than he has now FACT.

Another FACT is that he was virtually unknown fighter outside the UK before the Jeff Lacy fight. Which means him and his promoter wern't making the right choices.

The FACT that it has taken this amount of time for Joe Calzaghe, to only start getting a name outside the UK should tell you something.

Take Nigel Benn for example he went to the USA and took risks, against dangerous opposition like Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, thus making him the legend he is now. Thus getting the big fights and recognition in the USA in only 3 years of being a professional fighter.

It took Joe Calzaghe 13 years and 18 title defenses just to get a name, in the USA do you understand now ?

[Fenster]

I never said, he DUCKED Bute. I was argue that he (or even Froch) would have been a better fight than freakin Manfredo. I'm not even being petty. I'm giving an example of the way Calzaghe has conducted his career, fighting the Manfredos, Kabary Salems, and Mger Mkrchians of the world. I'm even saying that he "ducked" anybody. He just didn't bother to fight them because he could get paid defending that stupid WBO trinket against third rate fighters. For years, he never made a reasonable attempt to unify. He never thought of abandoning his belt because the WBO's offering of manitory challengers was a joke. He held the belt fighting as many or more C-grade fighters than real contenders. They have been shifting tickets on mismatches for years with Calzaghe. That's exactly my point.

He gets credit, in this order for these fights:

He's fought two A-level fighters

Kessler, Hopkins

Here are the B-grades
Reid B+, Eubank (because he was shot, he falls here) B+, Lacy B, Sheika B , Mitchell B-, Bika B -, Veit C+.

The rest are crap, and notice, half of the decent names, including the two best, are in the last couple of years.

That's a good resume. Not a great one. And that's too bad, because he's a great fighter.

Let me put out a GREAT resume. Look at James Toney's resume at SMW and MW - Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum 2x, Iran Barkley, Reggie Johnson (prime),Charles Williams, oh, and a loss to an up and coming MW champ named Roy Jones Jr. Toss in Merqui Sosa and Tim Littles for fun.

That's a great resume.

Eubank fought one of his most impressive fights after Calzaghe. You can't say he was "shot." He took the fight at late-ish notice and had to struggle to get the weight off (that's the excuse i'm sure you was looking for ). Calzaghe had never been past 8 rounds (we can ignore that fact).

I think Toney was a great fighter. Those are some great wins (i'm sure if someone was petty enough they could take the form apart ). The majority of Toney's wins must have been against CRAP too, no?

So, in other words, you are admitting that Calzaghe beat a Eubank who was far from 100%. You know it, but you don't want to admit that it matters.

And sure, Toney fought a lot of crap. He was also fighting every two to three months for a stretch, sometimes even in back to back months. Toney fought where ever, whenever he could for a stretch. After the Iran Barkley fight, he fought 13 fights in two years, with the last one being Roy Jones. Joe wouldn't have bones in his hands that much. James Toney fought more rounds than Calzaghe has sparred.

If Calzaghe goes all the way up to Cruiser and beats a guy as good as Jirov was at CW, we can talk. Add up all Toney's wins against quality opposition and it will come out to nearly the total of Calzaghe's fights.

Err.. what don't i want to admit about Eubank? He was slightly past his best. Never seen anyone claim he was anything other. He still fought a cracking fight though.

Calzaghe didn't have to fight as much as Toney cause he ain't a fat fucker that needs the rounds to stay in shape.

I don't know why you are comparing them? They have both proven to be quality fighters. Both been very successful. Like all top quality fighters they have fought plenty of mediocre opposition compared with the top class opponents.

[Fenster]

So Kessler should get no credit for his destruction of Beyer because Beyer was just in it for a final payday, right?

If I were Calzaghe and I were looking to a splash and big money in the US, I would have started earlier so I didn't need to fight a guy known from a reality TV show.

If Calzaghe had made some trips to the US earlier in his career, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in trying to get recognized in the States fighting Manfredo. Example - he could have come to the US to fight Sheika or Brewer or even Lacy, but he would have made less $$$ in the short term, no doubt, but he would have been investing building a reputation in the States. The Lacy fight could have been made in Tampa or even New York and it would have been a very good gate. I mean, Hatton came to the US and fought a credible beltholder, moving up in weight. That's seems like the way to do it.

Calzaghe made a choice to ignore the US market until the end of his career and it has cost him. So now he needs the Jones fight as a last big payday.

Calzaghe has almost always taken the most practical, business minded path, risking as little as possible, staying in his comfort zone as much as possible. He had a short term view of things for a long time, and now he's trying to make up for lost time. Roy Jones did the same thing once he got to a certain point, absolutely, and I call him out on it, too. I understand why Calzaghe made the choices he made, but in the end, it has left big gaps. I'm a fan. I'm not a hater. I'm pretty objective about this.

If he fights Chad Dawson after the Jones fight, I will forgive him all his past transgressions against boxing fans and nominate him for a "Brass Balls" award.

You're saying a professional boxer that is 45-0, top three ranked P4P, a multi-millionaire, just beat an all-time GREAT and signing out against another - has made BAD career choices?

He could of gone to the USA alot earlier and he could of moved up, to LHW years ago and have been a much bigger star, and made alot more money than he has now FACT.

Another FACT is that he was virtually unknown fighter outside the UK before the Jeff Lacy fight. Which means him and his promoter wern't making the right choices.

The FACT that it has taken this amount of time for Joe Calzaghe, to only start getting a name outside the UK should tell you something.

Take Nigel Benn for example he went to the USA and took risks, against dangerous opposition like Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, thus making him the legend he is now. Thus getting the big fights and recognition in the USA in only 3 years of being a professional fighter.

It took Joe Calzaghe 13 years and 18 title defenses just to get a name, in the USA do you understand now ?

PROVE that moving up in weight and going to the US earlier would have made him more money and a bigger star?