Pacquiao's place in History...

[Fenster]

Pac's achievements are great but to say he DOMINATED divisions is going way over the top.

Featherweight - Beat Barrera, drew with Marquez (lucky to get a draw IMO), lost to Morales. He didn't even win an alphabet at the weight ().

Superfeather - A superb run.. Beat Morales X 2, Larios, Barrera and Marquez (lucky to get the decision against Marquez IMO)

Lightweight - Beat the weakest alphabet champ in Diaz. Good win, good performance, but that's it, he was EXPECTED to win EASY.

Welterweight - Beat a clearly weight-drained, ancient Oscar. Great win nonetheless considering he was UNDERDOG and the weight jump.

So.. he has great wins, for sure, but above superfeather hasn't yet come close to facing the TOP guys.

[Mr140]

I dont think i rate pacman above Leonard i mean Leonard best wins are Duran,Benitez,Hearns and Hagler Pacmans best wins are Barrea, Morales, Marqauz, Del hoya and even if you added the likes of Hatton and Mayweather it would be close one for me even then with those wins. Morales was coming off of losses in everytime he fought pacman even the one that he lost to him as well which is not saying it was not a great win. Barrea was top from but also was beaten by a guy far below him in Jones but that seem to be a guy to have his number to tell you the truth. Marquaz well he had a draw and then fight which could of gone either way to tell you the truth alot of people thought Marquaz did enough to win it. Now for the big one in Oscar Del hoya was at the age 35 and already been beaten on a number of times and was only fight once a year but still a great win but you got to look at all the stuff that was going on with him. Hatton if he were to win would be good but lets not forget that Hatton record to him is not the thing of atg he may or may not make it to the hall of fame because besides the one great win he had thats about it. Now for me Mayweather and pacman are the same size so i would rate that to like a Leonard win over Hearns and not much better then that dude. Look at Leonards record he has been champion in the same amount of divsions. He beat Duran and made him quite and he was atg in the top 10. Benitez was undefeated and was the youngest champion there ever was and also was a champion in LWW and WW and Leonard was his first title fight and he knocked him out he was also a hall of famer and went on win LMW title. Hearns was top WW and never been stoped or beat and Leonard was the first to do that to him he went on to win titles in LMW,MW,SMW, LHW and CW and still knocking people out that got him in his way thats great win. Now for Hagler although not prime was coming off his best win and had not lost in like 10 years maybe it was 11 but Ray Leonard was no longer prime and he did not fight for ever and came back to win a close decsion that to me was a great accomplishment as well for him to do that. Even with those wins that Pac might get i would still put Leonard above him i think his wins are greater and i think pound for pound was a better fighter and had as many skills even more so i would still put him above.

[ultraelectromagneticpunch]

IF Manny beats Hatton, Cotto, PBF...



Although I doubt he can, but IF that will happen? I agree to many of you, he must be under top10 of all time... That's one hell of an achievement... He has beaten prime fighters at 130 below, all that he still needs to do to make a great resume is to beat the primes over 135-147... And those were Ricky, Cotto, and PBF... Again(sorry for being redundant)... IF this will happen? He's invincible... Deserves to be one of the best of ALL TIME!

[Kev]

Pac's achievements are great but to say he DOMINATED divisions is going way over the top.

Featherweight - Beat Barrera, drew with Marquez (lucky to get a draw IMO), lost to Morales. He didn't even win an alphabet at the weight ().

Superfeather - A superb run.. Beat Morales X 2, Larios, Barrera and Marquez (lucky to get the decision against Marquez IMO)

Lightweight - Beat the weakest alphabet champ in Diaz. Good win, good performance, but that's it, he was EXPECTED to win EASY.

Welterweight - Beat a clearly weight-drained, ancient Oscar. Great win nonetheless considering he was UNDERDOG and the weight jump.

So.. he has great wins, for sure, but above superfeather hasn't yet come close to facing the TOP guys.

Yes but no fighter in boxing history has ever truly dominated two divisions, there's simply not enough time in a career.

Even the great Ray Robinson was only dominant at welter, he could barely string two defenses together at middleweight ()

But he completely wrapped up and owned the superfeatherweight division beating every significant rival. I must admit I don't know much about his flyweight and bantamweight days but he won world titles at both flyweight and super bantam so am guessing he must have come close to ruling those weight classes as well whilst he was there.

When you look at the current flyweights, like Donaire, Darchinyan, Arce etc, the idea of them going through the likes of Isreal Vazquez and R Marquez before moving up to take on Stephen Leuveno then on to super featherweight to challenge Edwin Valero and Humberto Soto, before going after Nate Campbell at lightweight then up again to fight Kendall Holt etc, it just sounds completely ridiculous.

But Manny has actually gone and done that, his resume is amazing in my opinion even if Floyd comes back as far as I'm concerned he's only p4p number 2 unless he beats Manny.

Floyd fought Oscar to a split decision win, Manny just completely fucking creamed him. I can't think of any fighter who has ever moved through the weights like he has and kept his power, save for maybe Thomas Hearns, but he never started out as a flyweight!

[Fenster]

Pac's achievements are great but to say he DOMINATED divisions is going way over the top.

Featherweight - Beat Barrera, drew with Marquez (lucky to get a draw IMO), lost to Morales. He didn't even win an alphabet at the weight ().

Superfeather - A superb run.. Beat Morales X 2, Larios, Barrera and Marquez (lucky to get the decision against Marquez IMO)

Lightweight - Beat the weakest alphabet champ in Diaz. Good win, good performance, but that's it, he was EXPECTED to win EASY.

Welterweight - Beat a clearly weight-drained, ancient Oscar. Great win nonetheless considering he was UNDERDOG and the weight jump.

So.. he has great wins, for sure, but above superfeather hasn't yet come close to facing the TOP guys.

Yes but no fighter in boxing history has ever truly dominated two divisions, there's simply not enough time in a career.

Even the great Ray Robinson was only dominant at welter, he could barely string two defenses together at middleweight ()

But he completely wrapped up and owned the superfeatherweight division beating every significant rival. I must admit I don't know much about his flyweight and bantamweight days but he won world titles at both flyweight and super bantam so am guessing he must have come close to ruling those weight classes as well whilst he was there.

When you look at the current flyweights, like Donaire, Darchinyan, Arce etc, the idea of them going through the likes of Isreal Vazquez and R Marquez before moving up to take on Stephen Leuveno then on to super featherweight to challenge Edwin Valero and Humberto Soto, before going after Nate Campbell at lightweight then up again to fight Kendall Holt etc, it just sounds completely ridiculous.

But Manny has actually gone and done that, his resume is amazing in my opinion even if Floyd comes back as far as I'm concerned he's only p4p number 2 unless he beats Manny.

Floyd fought Oscar to a split decision win, Manny just completely fucking creamed him. I can't think of any fighter who has ever moved through the weights like he has and kept his power, save for maybe Thomas Hearns, but he never started out as a flyweight!

He got knocked spark-out as the flyweight "world" champ.

His achievements are great.

But i reckon it would mean MUCH more beating the linear no.1 lightwelter, Hatton, than the two wins over Diaz and Oscar.

And obviously a WIN over Floyd would make him a proper LEGEND.

[Mr140]

Well Tommy Hearns started out at 147 and went all the way to 190 so i say he was just as powerfull i guess but dont forget what age Pacman was when he started he was 16 thats reason the weight was so low Mayweather was at that weight when he was that age in the amatures. I mean even Oscar when he was younger was in the 130 division which was not his real weight just a thought when people talk about weights you got to remeber the age at which the fighter started.

[C-Lo]

Pac's achievements are great but to say he DOMINATED divisions is going way over the top.

Featherweight - Beat Barrera, drew with Marquez (lucky to get a draw IMO), lost to Morales. He didn't even win an alphabet at the weight ().

Superfeather - A superb run.. Beat Morales X 2, Larios, Barrera and Marquez (lucky to get the decision against Marquez IMO)

Lightweight - Beat the weakest alphabet champ in Diaz. Good win, good performance, but that's it, he was EXPECTED to win EASY.

Welterweight - Beat a clearly weight-drained, ancient Oscar. Great win nonetheless considering he was UNDERDOG and the weight jump.

So.. he has great wins, for sure, but above superfeather hasn't yet come close to facing the TOP guys.

Yes but no fighter in boxing history has ever truly dominated two divisions, there's simply not enough time in a career.

Even the great Ray Robinson was only dominant at welter, he could barely string two defenses together at middleweight ()

But he completely wrapped up and owned the superfeatherweight division beating every significant rival. I must admit I don't know much about his flyweight and bantamweight days but he won world titles at both flyweight and super bantam so am guessing he must have come close to ruling those weight classes as well whilst he was there.

When you look at the current flyweights, like Donaire, Darchinyan, Arce etc, the idea of them going through the likes of Isreal Vazquez and R Marquez before moving up to take on Stephen Leuveno then on to super featherweight to challenge Edwin Valero and Humberto Soto, before going after Nate Campbell at lightweight then up again to fight Kendall Holt etc, it just sounds completely ridiculous.

But Manny has actually gone and done that, his resume is amazing in my opinion even if Floyd comes back as far as I'm concerned he's only p4p number 2 unless he beats Manny.

Floyd fought Oscar to a split decision win, Manny just completely fucking creamed him. I can't think of any fighter who has ever moved through the weights like he has and kept his power, save for maybe Thomas Hearns, but he never started out as a flyweight!

When you put it that way, it sound CRAZY! Nice analogy!

[antimoron]

Pac's achievements are great but to say he DOMINATED divisions is going way over the top.

Featherweight - Beat Barrera, drew with Marquez (lucky to get a draw IMO), lost to Morales. He didn't even win an alphabet at the weight ().

Superfeather - A superb run.. Beat Morales X 2, Larios, Barrera and Marquez (lucky to get the decision against Marquez IMO)

Lightweight - Beat the weakest alphabet champ in Diaz. Good win, good performance, but that's it, he was EXPECTED to win EASY.

Welterweight - Beat a clearly weight-drained, ancient Oscar. Great win nonetheless considering he was UNDERDOG and the weight jump.

So.. he has great wins, for sure, but above superfeather hasn't yet come close to facing the TOP guys.

Pac got a good resume.. there are only few fighters(same era with pac) have that kind of accomplishments? Its hard to judge his reign above superfeather coz hes just been there merely 6 months..

i think what Pac did to his career is one of a kind.. From flyweight to superfeather to welter... who else does this? many people always question his achievements and i don't know why... many question his so called p4p skill being 1 dimensional or etc, etc.. but where are those p4p skilled fighters? Did they test their ability against the best?

regarding JMM.. well what can i say seems alot still don't accept the FACT that pac won.. If JMM really is a very very very skilled fighter as everybody else here mention.. why he can't beat Pac in a convincing manner.. isn't pac a 1 DIMENSIONAL FIGHTER? seems like a very technical gifted fighter having a hard time beating a 1 dimensional fighter. everybody is busy scrutinizing pacs resume.. Anyway this happens to every boxer who are successful just like PBF, JC, etc..

Now this comes to my mind that the reason why pac always wins it’s because of there are people who underestimate him.

if you ask me if he is an all time great? YES HE IS... where he ranks? That depends on where he is going from now until the day he call it quits..

[Julius Rain]

I say his simply the best fighter that came from the lighter weight division.

ledwaba
jolio
marco 2x
eric 2x
jmm
diaz
dela hoya

diaz maybe underrated, the best lightweight at the time was casamayor but the guy who beat casamayor more convincing then jmm if not for a k.o. was beaten by Diaz (santa cruz) imo jmm was losing the match against casa when the ko happen.

lewaba is a great win, pac took that fight in two weeks notice just to be known in the states and he destroyed him.

pac should of won the fight with sanchez and not a draw. the first with jmm, no matter what anybody say. the fact is the judge made an error on the scorecard. pac should of won that as well.

btw pac was doing this on his way up to his prime, he lost to eric on his way up but he came back like a true champ and ko'ed eric, who has never been ko'ed.

I think what set pac apart is that he beats up his oppenent and not just get the "W".

Another thing with pacs career is that, his oppenent looks slow and weak when pac is on top of his game. People can say his oppenent is past their prime, they were drain, they were this and that but maybe they should consider they look that way against pac cause pac is so much faster and stronger. Anyways i just hope pac becomes one of the all time great ever, Im proud of him already. I know if I say too much non fans of him will just call me a groupie or what ever these kids call a person giving props to his fighter. Atleast all my props to pac are FACTS.

[Fenster]

I say his simply the best fighter that came from the lighter weight division.

ledwaba
jolio
marco 2x
eric 2x
jmm
diaz
dela hoya

diaz maybe underrated, the best lightweight at the time was casamayor but the guy who beat casamayor more convincing then jmm if not for a k.o. was beaten by Diaz (santa cruz) imo jmm was losing the match against casa when the ko happen.

lewaba is a great win, pac took that fight in two weeks notice just to be known in the states and he destroyed him.

pac should of won the fight with sanchez and not a draw. the first with jmm, no matter what anybody say. the fact is the judge made an error on the scorecard. pac should of won that as well.

btw pac was doing this on his way up to his prime, he lost to eric on his way up but he came back like a true champ and ko'ed eric, who has never been ko'ed.

I think what set pac apart is that he beats up his oppenent and not just get the "W".

Another thing with pacs career is that, his oppenent looks slow and weak when pac is on top of his game. People can say his oppenent is past their prime, they were drain, they were this and that but maybe they should consider they look that way against pac cause pac is so much faster and stronger. Anyways i just hope pac becomes one of the all time great ever, Im proud of him already. I know if I say too much non fans of him will just call me a groupie or what ever these kids call a person giving props to his fighter. Atleast all my props to pac are FACTS.

Trying to make Diaz look better to bolster Pac is silly. It wasn't just Casamayor rated higher than him, there's about half-a-dozen guys including - Juan Diaz and Campbell, even guys like Romanov, Katsidis etc..

You want people to accept the judges decision that Pac beat Marquez then you have to accept the judges decision that Casamayor beat Cruz. You can't have it both ways. MOST thought old Morales beat Diaz too. But the fact is he lost on the judges cards.

It's also very silly to claim somebody beat someone "more convincing but for the KO".. .. Diaz was LOSING to Cruz before the KO "saved" him.

Finally.. if you claim Pac wasn't at his best when LOSING to Morales, people can just as easily claim Morales was past his best when losing to Pac

Fact.

[Rantcatrat]

Fenster,

You've consistently minimized Pac's potential to be an all-time great (if he isn't already?) in each of your posts, but you've never stated your opininion on where he ranks were he to beat Hatton (Ring Champ at Jr. Welter) and/or PBF (former p4p#1).

[KananKrus]

Right before the fat lady is in the podium, just about ready to ceank her voice hoarse, the PacMan will be one of the greatest ever!

[KananKrus]

Right before the fat lady is in the podium, just about ready to ceank her voice hoarse, the PacMan will be one of the greatest ever!

Crank!!! Sorry me badd, Sirs.

[Fenster]

Fenster,

You've consistently minimized Pac's potential to be an all-time great (if he isn't already?) in each of your posts, but you've never stated your opininion on where he ranks were he to beat Hatton (Ring Champ at Jr. Welter) and/or PBF (former p4p#1).

Ive already refered to Pac as "great" THREE times in this thread. I answered the question in my second post.. look -

I reckon it would mean MUCH more beating the linear no.1 lightwelter, Hatton, than the two wins over Diaz and Oscar.

And obviously a WIN over Floyd would make him a proper LEGEND.

You can't get BIGGER than legend status. Numerical lists are NONSENSE - IMO.

Modern-day fighters will always be overshadowed by the dead and the near-dead

[KananKrus]

Some of the name opponents of Pacquiao that he short-circuited in his rise to boxing prominence. Gives a bit of a perspective to some, who have no inkling of the PacMan's prior exploits in the ring before he went stateside.

OPBF- Ippo Gala 1996
Sung Yul Lee - Korean prospect
Wook Ki Lee - 17-1 another Korean.
OPBF Chokchai Chockvivat 3k battery 1997
Chartchai Sasakul - 33-0 WBC Flyweight Champion.
Nadel Hussein 19-0, Australian under Fenech, who floored Pacquiao with a jab, He however lost in controversial fashion.
Seung Kon Chae 33-0

This list is easily overlooked for when this was happening, there was no interest at all thrown at the lower weights.

Pacquiao had a little bit of something to do in getting the lower weights the attention, and larger purses, it is getting now.