When a ref says "TEN!"

[ClubberLang]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

[HattonTheHammer]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

As ive said cintron was more than stable enough to continue fighting but rules are rules and you cant just go around bending them to suit any given situation!!

[Myk_Myk]

Again, the ref apparently has discretion over that call. It seems in boxing that the ref is very rarely second guessed to the point of overturning their decisions. Perhaps that is partly why we don't have instant replay in boxing?

I do remember on FNF that a NC was changed to a TKO for Delvin Rodriguez, when (I believe) Teddy Atlas implored the NYSAC to look at the replays. They showed that the ref's original ruling of a head butt was erroneous, and that Keenan Collins' cut was caused by a punch. It didn't happen on the spot, but rather was later reviewed.

[NPwill]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

Bizarre night all around--- Round 7 being its zenith. I agree that Kerm, though hurt (he actually said "ow"-- not oomph, oof or ugh-- but "ow" and I don't think I ever heard that in a fight before) was likely sufficiently clearheaded, and it looked to me that he took a knee as Serg rushed (and his "bad" was arguing his mistaken belief that it was a head butt while on the canvas and the count ongoing and coming all too close to be counted out even if he wasn't "really" knocked-out.) That shouldn't have happened-- and I think its fair to call it a loss of composure. But he was up (not upright but on his feet-- and had more than just his gloves off the ground, which I think was Max's point) before 10.

So no knockout was properly called (and the rest of the chaos falls squarely on the ref's shoulders for not making his call clear to anyone-- not Kerm, not Serg or their corners/officials). People are calling Kerm lucky and have a point --- but since there was no knockout, it was the right call (though it took far too long to get there), and I really think long term Kerm's the unlucky one-- his rep is going to get (even more) shafted--- given the misperception that his "whining" got the ref to "change his mind" and "robbed" poor preening Serg (who didnt exactly look awesome on this evening either) of a "knockout" which he not only didn't earn in point of fact (since Kerm was up), but also when he likely didn't even hurt Kerm enough to say he "earned' such a KO (had Kerm NOT made the count, I would have attribtued the KO to Kerm's none too swift move in arguing his case on the canvas and not Serg's power (although it was a nice shot that caught Kerm)). If the ref makes the right call, Kerm stops "whining" and is sent back to the corner for a minute and comes out for round 8 and the "controversy" is avoided completely. Does Serg take him out? I doubt it- going back to the theory that Kerm wasn't in deep trouble to begin with.

But by the same token, I also truly believe that Kerm thought it was headbutt-both at the time and immediately after the fight. And, because of that subjective belief - though clearly mistaken--- I don't think his "I won that fight" comment in the aftermath is entirely obnoxious/outrageous as it has been portrayed. Think about it-- Kerm probably "saw" the fight along the same lines of the two judges who had it a draw. If he really thinks he was headbutted, and Serg was "given" a 10-8 round on what he believes to be an illiegtimately ruled knockdown-- I can see where Kerm THINKS he won the fight. (Not saying I saw it as a "draw" exactly, but given how almost nothing of true substance happened from either in many of the first 6 rounds, I don't think the draw outcome is quite as outrageous as it has been portrayed... but my bottom line is that Kerm was still fortunate).

And--- just to close the loop, by Thursday of this week, Kerm released a comment from Lou DiBella where he mans up and admits his mistake about the headbutt (a good move Kerm--we're still waiting for Margs to man up and admit to his intentional cheating), and no longer questions the outcome of the fight (which is really as far as he could go on that front).

Knowing what a good kid he is, I'm still a big time Kerm fan. I just wish he could somehow avoid all this "drama" and just focus on fighting, letting his hands go, improving his skills and getting better in the ring.

[ClubberLang]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

Bizarre night all around--- Round 7 being its zenith. I agree that Kerm, though hurt (he actually said "ow"-- not oomph, oof or ugh-- but "ow" I don't think I ever heard that in a fight before) and was likely sufficiently clearheaded and it looked to me that he took a knee as Serg rushed(and his "bad" was arguing his mistaken belief that it was a head butt while on the canvas and the count ongoing and coming all too close to be counted out even if he wasn't "really" knocked-out.) That shouldn't have happened-- and I think its fair to call it a loss of composure. But he was up (not upright but on his feet-- and had more than just his gloves off the ground which I think was Max's point) before 10.

So no knockout was properly called (and the rest of the chaos falls squarely on the ref's shoulders for not making his call clear to anyone-- not Kerm, not Serg or their corners/officials). People are calling Kerm lucky and have a point --- but since there was no knockout, Iand it was the right call (though it took far too long to get there), I really think long term Kerm's the unlucky one-- his rep is going to get (even more) shafted--- given the misperception that his "whining" got the ref to "change his mind" and "robbed" poor preening Serg (who didnt exactly look awesome on this evening either) of a "knockout" which he not only didn't earn in point of fact (since Kerm was up), but really didn't even hurt Kerm enough to say he "earned' (had Kerm NOT made the count, I would have attribtued the KO to Kerm's none too swift move in arguing his case on the canvas not Serg's power (although it was a nice shot that caught Kerm) If the ref makes the right call, Kerm stops "whining" and is sent back to the corner for a minute and comes out for round 8 and the "controversy" is avoided completely. Does Serg take him out? I doubt it- going back to the theory that Kerm wasn't in deep trouble to begin with.

But by the same token, I also truly believe that Kerm thought it was headbutt-both at the time and immediately after the fight. And, because of that subjective belief - though clearly mistaken--- I don't think his "I won that fight" comment in the aftermath is entirely obnoxious/outrageous as it has been portrayed. Think about it-- Kerm probably "saw" the fight along the same lines of the two judges who had it a draw. If he really thinks he was headbutted, and Serg was "given" a 10-8 round on what he believes to be an illiegtimately ruled knockdown-- I can see where Kerm THINKS he won the fight. (Not saying I saw it as a "draw" exactly, but given how almost nothing of true substance happened from either in many of the first 6 rounds, I don't think the draw outcome is quite as outrageous as it has been portrayed... but my bottom line is that Kerm was still fortunate).

And--- just to close the loop, by Thursday of this week, Kerm released a comment from Lou DiBella where he mans up and admit his mistake about the headbutt (a good move Kerm--we're still waiting for Margs to man up and admit to his intentional cheating), and no longer questions the outcome of the fight (which is really as far as he could go on that front).

Knowing what a good kid he is, I'm still a big time Kerm fan. I just wish he could somehow avoid all this "drama" and just focus on fighting, letting his hands go, improving his skills and getting better in the ring.

Unfortunately, Kermit has looked awful his last three fights and simply shows a lack of mental toughness and composure. The fact that he is being considered as Cotto's June opponent (assuming Cotto beats Jennings) after his last three bouts is ridiculous. He has done absolutely nothing to earn that kind of payday. Someone like Clottey is much more deserving.

[NPwill]

Unfortunately, Kermit has looked awful his last three fights and simply shows a lack of mental toughness and composure. The fact that he is being considered as Cotto's June opponent (assuming Cotto beats Jennings) after his last three bouts is ridiculous. He has done absolutely nothing to earn that kind of payday. Someone like Clottey is much more deserving.

I actually agree that Cotto is not the choice next for Kerm. I'd like him to at least try to get some mojo back and look dominant under Ronnie Shields in the next few fights-- even if it takes stepping back in competition.

I'm not going to go as far as "awful" for anything other than as an appropriate adjective to describe almost anyone associated with last Saturday's bout as a whole-- Kerm included. But I grant that Kerm hasn't look comfortable or natural in his style the last few bouts. Overthinking? Paralysis by overanalysis? Loss of composure? I think all those are fair to point to. Lacking "mental toughness"? That one I have a bit of trouble with. Having never got in a ring myself, I am in absolutely no position to accuse anyone of that, or measure a man's heart and desire for that matter. But even as an academic exercise for purposes of this discussion, I have difficulty reconciling such easy diagnoisis with the fact that Kerm has taken on Margarito twice (and he didn't need to take the second bout-- he wanted it), stepped up on short notice to fight at 154 for the first time ever and take on Martinez (who supposedly in HBO's eyes is ready to be the next "big thing"), and now wants to take on Cotto. Something doesn't connect there-- a guy with "no mental toughness" usually doesn't want to take on the best but rather takes the easy way out.

Just pure speculation on my part: but I think the cumulative injuries to his hands that Kerm has suffered over the years (the curse of having such power) have perhaps reached the point of no return/can't be fixed where he's 100% anymore. And a puncher with hand issues doesn't have a long career timeframe-- which may help to explain why Kerm is suddenly taking "the money bouts" now while he can, even perhaps at the detriment of his long term interests.

Cotto would be one tough mountain to climb-- not impossible given Kerm's power, but he really looked impressive to me against Qunitana a few years back. And I think its fair to question what answers Kerm now has in terms of an improved skill set to withstand a similar assault when he didn't last Spring against Margarito (putting aside the whole load gloves questions-- and even all the lingering drama/doubts in that regard). I'm sure Kerm wouldn't back down if the opportunity is there with Cotto (and the gate in NYC during the Puerto Rico Day Parade would be huge), but to my mind, I'm hoping Arum and Top Rank do right by their own guy (Clottey) and give him the first shot at Cotto. So my hope is that Kerm takes on someone at a level of a Gomez, or a Delvin Rodriguez next-- and I say this as a continuning Cintron fan.

[ClubberLang]

Unfortunately, Kermit has looked awful his last three fights and simply shows a lack of mental toughness and composure. The fact that he is being considered as Cotto's June opponent (assuming Cotto beats Jennings) after his last three bouts is ridiculous. He has done absolutely nothing to earn that kind of payday. Someone like Clottey is much more deserving.

I actually agree that Cotto is not the choice next for Kerm. I'd like him to at least try to get some mojo back and look dominant under Ronnie Shields in the next few fights-- even if it takes stepping back in competition.

I'm not going to go as far as "awful" for anything other than as an appropriate adjective to describe almost anyone associated with last Saturday's bout as a whole-- Kerm included. But I grant that Kerm hasn't look comfortable or natural in his style the last few bouts. Overthinking? Paralysis by overanalysis? Loss of composure? I think all those are fair to point to. Lacking "mental toughness"? That one I have a bit of trouble with. Having never got in a ring myself, I am in absolutely no position to accuse anyone of that, or measure a man's heart and desire for that matter. But even as an academic exercise for purposes of this discussion, I have difficulty reconciling such easy diagnoisis with the fact that Kerm has taken on Margarito twice (and he didn't need to take the second bout-- he wanted it), stepped up on short notice to fight at 154 for the first time ever and take on Martinez (who supposedly in HBO's eyes is ready to be the next "big thing"), and now wants to take on Cotto. Something doesn't connect there-- a guy with "no mental toughness" usually doesn't want to take on the best but rather takes the easy way out.

Just pure speculation on my part: but I think the cumulative injuries to his hands that Kerm has suffered over the years (the curse of having such power) have perhaps reached the point of no return/can't be fixed where he's 100% anymore. And a puncher with hand issues doesn't have a long career timeframe-- which may help to explain why Kerm is suddenly taking "the money bouts" now while he can, even perhaps at the detriment of his long term interests.

Cotto would be one tough mountain to climb-- not impossible given Kerm's power, but he really looked impressive to me against Qunitana a few years back. And I think its fair to question what answers Kerm now has in terms of an improved skill set to withstand a similar assault when he didn't last Spring against Margarito (putting aside the whole load gloves questions-- and even all the lingering drama/doubts in that regard). I'm sure Kerm wouldn't back down if the opportunity is there with Cotto (and the gate in NYC during the Puerto Rico Day Parade would be huge), but to my mind, I'm hoping Arum and Top Rank do right by their own guy (Clottey) and give him the first shot at Cotto. So my hope is that Kerm takes on someone at a level of a Gomez, or a Delvin Rodriguez next-- and I say this as a continuning Cintron fan.

I guess I should rephrase myself, because I actually agree with you to an extent. I have never stepped into the ring myself. So, someone like Cintron who steps in with world class level fighters certainly has bigger balls than I'll ever have. HOWEVER, within the sphere of his profession, you can compare his mental toughness as opposed to his peers. And, I think it is pretty clear that he has less mental toughness than other world class fighters. I mean, the guy flat out quit in his first fight with Margarito. He was not knocked out, he simply gave up and started crying like a baby. In the second Margarito fight, all you have to do is look at his body language to see that the pressure was too much for him. He kept looking to the ref to bail him out, clutching his head time after time even though Margo was clearly only landing on the back of his head because of Cintron's own defensive posture. And, then against Martinez, you have him looking for an out with the headbutt excuse. He started cursing everyone and his mother about that. Of course, the replay showed an absolutely clear punch landed. Cintron clearly could have gotten up before ten, but he didn't. The only explanation I can see is that he was hoping to sell the headbutt so the fight would end with the chance of him winning by DQ or else on the scorecards. So, yes, relative to the average human being, Kermit Cintron has giant balls to even contemplate entering the ring against a world class boxer. BUT, when compared to his peers, he has clearly shown that he will wilt and look for the easy way out when things get tough. As far as a potential fight with Cotto, he does not deserve the shot/payday in the least. He looked bad or at least unentertaining in his last three fights. A guy like Clottey has been plodding away for years, his only two losses because of a BS DQ and a fight against Margo that he was winning easily until he hurt his hands. He is much more deserving of the payday he's never gotten. Cintron has had his shot (had he beaten Margo the 2nd time he was guarenteed the Cotto fight) and squandered it. Clottey hasn't had that chance yet. I will be disgusted if Arum gives Cintron that fight, especially since Clottey is in Arum's stable while Cintron is with DiBella.

[NPwill]

Unfortunately, Kermit has looked awful his last three fights and simply shows a lack of mental toughness and composure. The fact that he is being considered as Cotto's June opponent (assuming Cotto beats Jennings) after his last three bouts is ridiculous. He has done absolutely nothing to earn that kind of payday. Someone like Clottey is much more deserving.

I actually agree that Cotto is not the choice next for Kerm. I'd like him to at least try to get some mojo back and look dominant under Ronnie Shields in the next few fights-- even if it takes stepping back in competition.

I'm not going to go as far as "awful" for anything other than as an appropriate adjective to describe almost anyone associated with last Saturday's bout as a whole-- Kerm included. But I grant that Kerm hasn't look comfortable or natural in his style the last few bouts. Overthinking? Paralysis by overanalysis? Loss of composure? I think all those are fair to point to. Lacking "mental toughness"? That one I have a bit of trouble with. Having never got in a ring myself, I am in absolutely no position to accuse anyone of that, or measure a man's heart and desire for that matter. But even as an academic exercise for purposes of this discussion, I have difficulty reconciling such easy diagnoisis with the fact that Kerm has taken on Margarito twice (and he didn't need to take the second bout-- he wanted it), stepped up on short notice to fight at 154 for the first time ever and take on Martinez (who supposedly in HBO's eyes is ready to be the next "big thing"), and now wants to take on Cotto. Something doesn't connect there-- a guy with "no mental toughness" usually doesn't want to take on the best but rather takes the easy way out.

Just pure speculation on my part: but I think the cumulative injuries to his hands that Kerm has suffered over the years (the curse of having such power) have perhaps reached the point of no return/can't be fixed where he's 100% anymore. And a puncher with hand issues doesn't have a long career timeframe-- which may help to explain why Kerm is suddenly taking "the money bouts" now while he can, even perhaps at the detriment of his long term interests.

Cotto would be one tough mountain to climb-- not impossible given Kerm's power, but he really looked impressive to me against Qunitana a few years back. And I think its fair to question what answers Kerm now has in terms of an improved skill set to withstand a similar assault when he didn't last Spring against Margarito (putting aside the whole load gloves questions-- and even all the lingering drama/doubts in that regard). I'm sure Kerm wouldn't back down if the opportunity is there with Cotto (and the gate in NYC during the Puerto Rico Day Parade would be huge), but to my mind, I'm hoping Arum and Top Rank do right by their own guy (Clottey) and give him the first shot at Cotto. So my hope is that Kerm takes on someone at a level of a Gomez, or a Delvin Rodriguez next-- and I say this as a continuning Cintron fan.

I guess I should rephrase myself, because I actually agree with you to an extent. I have never stepped into the ring myself. So, someone like Cintron who steps in with world class level fighters certainly has bigger balls than I'll ever have. HOWEVER, within the sphere of his profession, you can compare his mental toughness as opposed to his peers. And, I think it is pretty clear that he has less mental toughness than other world class fighters. I mean, the guy flat out quit in his first fight with Margarito. He was not knocked out, he simply gave up and started crying like a baby. In the second Margarito fight, all you have to do is look at his body language to see that the pressure was too much for him. He kept looking to the ref to bail him out, clutching his head time after time even though Margo was clearly only landing on the back of his head because of Cintron's own defensive posture. And, then against Martinez, you have him looking for an out with the headbutt excuse. He started cursing everyone and his mother about that. Of course, the replay showed an absolutely clear punch landed. Cintron clearly could have gotten up before ten, but he didn't. The only explanation I can see is that he was hoping to sell the headbutt so the fight would end with the chance of him winning by DQ or else on the scorecards. So, yes, relative to the average human being, Kermit Cintron has giant balls to even contemplate entering the ring against a world class boxer. BUT, when compared to his peers, he has clearly shown that he will wilt and look for the easy way out when things get tough. As far as a potential fight with Cotto, he does not deserve the shot/payday in the least. He looked bad or at least unentertaining in his last three fights. A guy like Clottey has been plodding away for years, his only two losses because of a BS DQ and a fight against Margo that he was winning easily until he hurt his hands. He is much more deserving of the payday he's never gotten. Cintron has had his shot (had he beaten Margo the 2nd time he was guarenteed the Cotto fight) and squandered it. Clottey hasn't had that chance yet. I will be disgusted if Arum gives Cintron that fight, especially since Clottey is in Arum's stable while Cintron is with DiBella.

While I agree in part with your characterization of Kerm's more problematical fights and some of the flaws demonstrated therein-- I continue to disagree with your attributing it ALL to a lack of "mental toughness". First, you omit some of the fights which Kerm has won (Reid, Estrada, Suarez) each of which had times of "gutcheck" moments (granted, none were A-listers). As to Margs I-- I agree with nearly everything you say; but in retrospect, sending Kerm against Tony (by his then-not ready for prime time corner and team) was the equivalent of sending a lamb to the slaughter. As to Margs II-- I'd say your characterization is more debatable. I personally don't see the same "body language" as in the first fight, nor do I see his appeals to the ref (though I agree that they were largely due to his waist bending) as an effort to "bail him out". Nor did he "cry like a baby" in its immediate aftermath having been outgunned the second time around: he took the loss "like a man" (and didn't have to freaking load his hand wraps). Indeed, if you asked Kerm the mistake he made against Tony in that fight, he'll cite his gameplan in which he abandoned his strategy and just wanted to "bang with him" (maybe in an illadvised effort at redemption?). But hardly the stuff of lacking mental toughness in my mind.

But we completely disagree with your take on the 7th Round against Martinez as "looking for an out". Give me a break-- I think his vehemenece in protesting the headbutt (which I honestly believe he thought occured at the time) is evdience that he truly thought he was winning the fight and IN NO WAY shows that he was somehow "looking for an out" . ANOTHER loss of composure after getting caught and somewhat hurt-- I'll agree with, but in the end it was nothing more than a "brain fart" that he nearly didn't get up in time even when he wasn't that hurt. I suspect you are projecting your prior impressions of what you think happened in his prior fights to the events of Saturday night when the facts wouldn't seem to bear them out. If anything, I think his post-fight "meltdown" comments that he "won the fight" corrborates this--- think about it--in Kerm's mind he's P***ed off and thinks he's "won" the fight if he honestly believes that a headbutt caused the knockdown and Serg was "given" a 10-8 round (that's not what really happened of course, but Kerm doesn't know that at that time). So though Ill be the first to acknowledge flaws in Kerm's overall game, I'm not going to fan the flames of the Cintron-haters of the world (and they are legion and out in droves after this past week) by throwing accelerent on criticism I feel are more based on repuation than reality.

Having said all that, I agree with you about Cotto/Clottey.