Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1

[JT Rock]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

[Kev]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

[Gandalf]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

[Kev]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

[JT Rock]

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Mick provided a revealing stat, that over 80% of boxing writers gave Marquez the nod over PAC... so yea I would consider it a questionable desicion

[Gandalf]

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

[Kev]

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

What if the Ring editor was one of the minority who felt Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather so the Ring Rankings reflected that with Oscar as p4p number 1 and Floyd dropped to fourth?

Or should the Ring reverse only the decisions that you also disagreed with?

[Gandalf]

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.

[JT Rock]

Newsflash dude, PFP is not based on any other thing except opinion..

I also stated JMM beating Casamayor was just as good maybe even better that Pac/DLH. Marquez moved up in weight to beat THE RING champion at 135(Casamayor) who had a resume comparably to Delahoya's!!!!

Casamayor was fighting at that weight comfortably for years and is active compared to a part time shell of a fighter who hadnt fought 147 for a friggin decade... Why cant you get that through your head?? name me a fighter who dropped down in weight after 10 years and was successful beating a guy 5 years younger in his prime considered #1 in the world... Oscar's only chance would have been to cut to 147, rehydrate to 160... There isint an fan or expert in the world that didnt see that as the winning equation....

Pac was bigger than Delahoya, Pac had rehydrated to 147 plenty before when he fought at 130.... So why is that such a monumental achievement beating a guy you who you were faster, stronger, bigger, younger in your prime, out of his prime Explain Bilbo please!!!! I dont care about that 6 division champion crap all irrelevant, I care for the here and now, what happened in December because thats what matters....

By that logic of the past, than JMM is even better, because he beat Casamayor who beat Campbell and Campbell beat Diaz... So JMM has wins over both Diaz and Casamayor, by KO to boot

As far as the Diaz's go Jmm's victory over a prime young A rated fighter in Juan is more impressive than Pac's handpicked mediocre win over David Diaz...

[Kev]

Newsflash dude, PFP is not based on any other thing except opinion..

I also stated JMM beating Casamayor was just as good maybe even better that Pac/DLH. Marquez moved up in weight to beat THE RING champion at 135(Casamayor) who had a resume comparably to Delahoya's!!!!

Casamayor was fighting at that weight comfortably for years and is active compared to a part time shell of a fighter who hadnt fought 147 for a friggin decade... Why cant you get that through your head?? name me a fighter who dropped down in weight after 10 years and was successful beating a guy 5 years younger in his prime considered #1 in the world... Oscar's only chance would have been to cut to 147, rehydrate to 160... There isint an fan or expert in the world that didnt see that as the winning equation....

Pac was bigger than Delahoya, Pac had rehydrated to 147 plenty before when he fought at 130.... So why is that such a monumental achievement beating a guy you who you were faster, stronger, bigger, younger in your prime, out of his prime Explain Bilbo please!!!! I dont care about that 6 division champion crap all irrelevant, I care for the here and now, what happened in December because thats what matters....

By that logic of the past, than JMM is even better, because he beat Casamayor who beat Campbell and Campbell beat Diaz... So JMM has wins over both Diaz and Casamayor, by KO to boot

As far as the Diaz's go Jmm's victory over a prime young A rated fighter in Juan is more impressive than Pac's handpicked mediocre win over David Diaz...

Everything you said is just your opinion JT, Pacquaio BEAT Marquez, so he's p4p number 1.

You can argue as much as you like that you think he shouldn't have won it but the FACT is that he did.

That's why the Ring will have Pacquaio as number 1 in the world because their rankings are an attempt at restoring objectivity and credibility to boxing and not allowing personal subjective opinon to hold sway.

You say the rankings are based on opinion, in large case the Ring magazines are not.

Do you think that in order to have Manny as number 1 you have to agree that he deserved to win the fight with Marquez? Or that he would win a rematch? Or that Juan Diaz was a better opponent than Oscar De La Hoya?

No you don't have to agree with ANY of that but Manny still HAS to be number 1 because he BEAT Juan Manuel Marquez according to the OFFICIAL result.

I have no problem with you thinking Marquez should have won the fight against Pacquio, I have no problem with you thinking his performances since have been better and that he fought better opposition.

But the ONLY way he gets to become p4p number 1 is if Manny loses or retires, that's just the way it works.

[OumaFan]

I agree with Bilbo in some ways. I haven't read anything he's posted on this page because he's so long winded but the earlier stuff I agreed with. Anyway its kind of pointless to argue about, there's no one guy that's so far ahead that he's almost an obvious choice, its just opinion.

Addicted to Boxing- Why was it Pacquaio's fault as much as JMM's that the rematch didn't happen earlier. Everything I've ever read about it had Nacho Beristain negotiating his way out of the fight. Clearly JMM wasn't scared but I've always heard it was Nacho's fault, so enlighten us.