Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1

[Kev]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

[JT Rock]

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Mick provided a revealing stat, that over 80% of boxing writers gave Marquez the nod over PAC... so yea I would consider it a questionable desicion

[Gandalf]

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

[Kev]

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

What if the Ring editor was one of the minority who felt Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather so the Ring Rankings reflected that with Oscar as p4p number 1 and Floyd dropped to fourth?

Or should the Ring reverse only the decisions that you also disagreed with?

[Gandalf]

Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!

Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?

Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.

The official result IS what counts.

You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.

And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.

Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.

[Kev]

Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.

How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?

If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?

To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.

You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.

If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.

[Gandalf]

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.

How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?

If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?

To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.

You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.

If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.

All I'm saying is that all rankings are open for interpretation. There is no accurate ranking, you should be open to that. A magazine interpretation is just one of many. Individual opinions mean just as much sometimes.

[Kev]

Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.

How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?

If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?

To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.

You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.

If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.

All I'm saying is that all rankings are open for interpretation. There is no accurate ranking, you should be open to that. A magazine interpretation is just one of many. Individual opinions mean just as much sometimes.

The Ring rankings arn't just a magazine though as they have immense prestige in the world of boxing even taking precedent over the alphabet belts.

Especially in the last few years we've seen many fights announced as being for the Ring Championship, or the fighter being regarded by the Ring Magazine as p4p one of the best in the world.

It DOES has authority and significance and in that sense is an official ranking system, unlike for example the Boxing Talk rankings list or BBC's p4p lists which are generally shit.

Setanta for example have David Haye in their top 10, and Chris John at 8 presumably becuase they had the rights to screen his fight with Rocky Juarez.

The Ring rankings though are respected and carry weigh within the boxing world and hence cannot be based on mere personal opinion.

If you are talking about any other ranking body I couldn't care less who they have in their top 10 but the Ring magazine's rankings are supposed to restore credibility and objectivity to the question of 'who are boxing's best?'.

[JazMerkin]

So the Ring should just post their opinions right?

So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?

That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts.

Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.

How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?

If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?

To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.

You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.

If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.

Mighty Mike without a doubt, no P4P list can be taken seriously without him at its pinnacle.

I do agree with Bilbo though, whilst I do think that Marquez is #1, the fact remains that The Ring should only do these rankings on actual fight results, although it does make exceptions for bizarre decisions that are basically robberies (see Humberto Soto & Librado Andrade's ratings actually going up after their fights with Lorenzo & Bute). However, even though I thought JMM won, there is no way that fight was a robbery, it was much too close for that. I do believe the rankings are done by committee anyway so that should make sure that the system is fair. Although anyone who somehow thought ODLH actually won against PBF, clearly doesn't actually know shit about boxing. If someone like that was in charge of The Ring then I think its legitimacy would be damaged. I do think JMM is #1, but for me I cant see how someone could complain about Pacquiao being #1.

[cnote111]

Man i love this forum...

I am a die-hard pacfan (which pains me to admit that on this forum)

I read posts constantly, i just don't hit the reply button enough..

On Topic:

I have to go with Bilbo on this one, and not because i am a Pac fan. If the shoe was on the other foot and Marquez squeeked out that split decision during their last encounter and was ranked P4P #1. No matter how much i thought Pac won the fight i would have no basis saying Pacman deserves to be #1. Regardless of who we feel won a fight. The Rankings have to have some type of boundries. The case of Marg/Cotto/Mosely doesn't apply here. Its all speculation when it comes to Pac/JMM and the opponents they have faced. Neither party has faced the same opposition besides MAB. And some have MAB beating JMM. That is exactly why you can't use speculation on P4P when the two fighters you are comparing HAVE fought one another and one of those fighters has the "W" on his record. Whether you agree with it or not.

It all boils down to JMM "technically" lost to Pac. Putting JMM at #2 - Case Closed

[Fenster]

Fuck the Ring.

We used to have our own Saddo P4P rankings. Wacko updated it regularly - unfortunately the rankings went with Wacko.

Someone restart the Saddo rankings. Lets see who the REAL fans think are on top P4P