Where will you put Pac in the All-Time Greats?

[CutMeMick]

Well Mick I won't pretend I know a great deal about a lot of fighters on that list but let me run through a few.

Marvin Hagler. Sorry but Pacquaio in my opinion rates above Hagler. Hagler stuck to a single weight class and fought I believe 3 Hall of Famers, certainly three great fighters. One he KO'd in spectacular fashion, another coming up from lightweight he won on points (I don't think that is all THAT amazing) and the other the Ray Leonard he lost. You may argue it was close but he still lost. He never went to light heavy let alone up to heavyweight which is the equivilant of what Manny has done.

Hopkins, Surely Manny's resume is better than Hop's. Hopkins is a legend but his biggest wins in his prime were against smaller men, and his even though he's a two weight champ he never fought a bigger man in his career, Hopkins was always a light heavyweight. I consider Pacquaio's resume to be above Hopkins.

Joe Luis reigned for an awful long time but he never beat anyone in the top 20 All time great list so how can you disqualify Pacqauio for not having done that (when there simply havnt been any top 20 all times for him to fight) but not penalise Luis.

And comparing fights Pacqauio's wins are better than Luis no question imo. Luis never fought any other all time great heavy's yet Pacqauio has beaten a who's who of all time greats.

Monzon, again ruled only one weight class. I don't know a great deal about his opponents but Naples and Emille Griffith were the best I believe and to me are no better than Barrera and Morales on an all time. Add in Marquez, Hatton and De Le Hoya and I think Manny eclipses him.

Willie Pep is another that mystifies me a bit. Stuck in one division as far as I know and the only fighters he fought whose names I recognise he lost to.

Well Bilbs I think you and I both know it's easy to grab any fighter in history and just nit pick and take them apart with their career.

I simply don't think it as impressive to stay in one weight class and beat all comers (actually most in your list didn't even do that they lost significant fights as well) rather than move through 6 (SIX!!) weight classes and beat the BEST in those division.s

Let's clarify something being that you've made this comment a couple times now. The he beat the Best in those div.
Pac was just a title holder in the Fly div. beating Sasakul was def. a good win. But let's not forget that "Too Sharp" was there in that division and was considered to be the best.

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.

Pac did beat MAB and clearly. So yes he did beat the best at Super. Bantam. Then he fought to a Draw vs. JMM in a fight that NOT just several but a lot of people feel he lost.

He then get's clearly outboxed and hustled by Erik.
Then the whole Erik loses to Zahir but who cares boxing politics...

At Super Feather yes he did beat JMM the best in the div. on paper but again refer to the boxing circle and pan out a poll which has been posted on here about boxing writers and analist and all had JMM wining.

At Lightweight it's clear it was a tue up/gimmie fight for him he picked up a title but did not beat the best. Shit! I'd go as far as saying Diaz was around the 6, 7 or 8th best Lightweight at that time.

Let's eye this ODLH @ 147 more the fight was billed as such but Pac scaled in at 142 and not 147 so technically it wasn't at 147. He did exactly what I posted he would do. Beat and mandhandle a guy who had no business trying to make 147. A guy who I said would look like a corpse and guy who hadn't fought at 157 for over 6 yrs.
I'm sorry and you can look up my posts but nothing about what Pac did to ODLH impressed me. Long before ODLHs opponent was even talked about, when I 1st read ODLH to fight at 147 I knew he'd lose.
So this is rated a 147 win for Pac, OK I'll take it but he didn't beat the best.

He did beat the best at 140 and in fashion. Like true great do and again I'm sorry but I don't see how people called this fight 50/50 or close and you can look up my posting from day one of this fight. I said Pac KO and within 5 rounds, I said if Lazcano was able to hurt and wobble him then Pac would just blitz him.
Never in my wildest dreams did I think he'd do it in 2 rounds that is mind blowing.

So let's do a total count here:
- Title holder at Fly
- Title holder at Super Bantam
- Beat the man at Featherweight in MAB (With a draw vs. the 2nd best Feather and a loss to Erik)
- Beat the man at Super Feather
- Title holder at Lightweight
- Beat the man at Lightwelter

I don't know a great deal about his opponents but Naples and Emille Griffith were the best I believe and to me are no better than Barrera and Morales on an all time.

How wrong can you be Bilbo.
If you hoenstly think Emile & Mantequilla are no better then Erik & MAB then theirs nothing I can do.
But I would strongly suggest you get a hold of their career sets.

I think your talking a bit out of your ass there without really having studied Emile & Napoles. But wow!
Believe me this is coming from a fan of both Erik & MAB but nope.com
neither one is at the level of those 2.

For a man to come from flyweight to rule as high as junior welter and beat a legend at welter is something that to my knowledge has never been done in the history of the sport, certainly not in the modern game.

See my post above in regards to beating "ruling"/"beating the best".
I do agree on the weight move and I don't dispute it and never have I think it's crazy for him to do that and is great.

Jones Jr went up to heavyweight, fought the weakest champ and won on points, Manny went up to light welter, fought the undisputed champ at the weight and destroyed him in two rounds.

That is a true fact.
Pac also moved up in weight and took on the weakest champ in Diaz and starched him.
I def. give him ALL the praise in the world for the distruction he did on Hatton but nothing you say will change my mind on the ODLH fight and the Diaz fight.

He is the kind of fighter the likes of which I don't think has ever been seen in the sport exactly, a fighter who not only went through 6 weight classes, an elite few have done that, but he fought the best in those divisions, and he destroyed most of them! Who else in the history of boxing has done that?
Not Jones Jr, Not Sugar Ray Leonard, not Robinson, not Duran, certainly not Hagler, Monzon, Pep etc.
He is unique in the history of the sport.

Again see my post above about the "best" comment.
Yes he did beat the best in some of those div. but not all and I'm not taking from him just clarifying your comment.
I do agree again that what he has done in just within a few years is crazy the moving up in weight and I do praise him for it.

But we don't know where his career will go and how it will end so to say he's top 5 all time or top 10 is IMO off.
He's def. an ATG.