How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?

[Kev]

Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

You're not listening to me I said I think a Darchinyan win is better than wins over Ponce and Penalosa. And aside from those three guys Donaire's wins are better than JML's. Believe me if I could make a case for him I would, he's a future monster IMO.

I've already said that I think you can't just ignore Darchinyan's accomplishments after Donaire when rating how good that win was. Has he improved since? Looks like it, but its hard to measure and I don't think you can make some claim that he's a totally different fighter, improved probably but not a totally different guy. Vic's wins since just validate the importance of the win for Donaire even more.

Look at Donaires record on boxrec his three fights prior to the Darchinan fight were 5-9, 35-27-1 and 5-6-1, his resume Darchinyan aside is totally mediocre.

Of his opponents since Darchinyan, only one had ever fought for a world title and he got knocked out.

Apart from Vic he's fought nobody let alone beaten anybody.

Chad Dawson has beaten Thomas Adamek, two time and reigning cruiserweight champ, Tarver Twice, former undisputed light heavyyweight champ, former p4p star, Johnson, another former undisputed champ and former p4p star.

Williams has won 3 world titles in two weight classes and holds a win over former top 3 p4p star Winky Wright.

Juan Guzman holds world titles at two different weights and has beaten four former or current champions.

Donaire's resume is totally mediocre aside from the Vic win, and Vic's best achievments were after the Donaire loss.

It just grates me

[OumaFan]

How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

You're not listening to me I said I think a Darchinyan win is better than wins over Ponce and Penalosa. And aside from those three guys Donaire's wins are better than JML's. Believe me if I could make a case for him I would, he's a future monster IMO.

I've already said that I think you can't just ignore Darchinyan's accomplishments after Donaire when rating how good that win was. Has he improved since? Looks like it, but its hard to measure and I don't think you can make some claim that he's a totally different fighter, improved probably but not a totally different guy. Vic's wins since just validate the importance of the win for Donaire even more.

Look at Donaires record on boxrec his three fights prior to the Darchinan fight were 5-9, 35-27-1 and 5-6-1, his resume Darchinyan aside is totally mediocre.

Of his opponents since Darchinyan, only one had ever fought for a world title and he got knocked out.

Apart from Vic he's fought nobody let alone beaten anybody.

Chad Dawson has beaten Thomas Adamek, two time and reigning cruiserweight champ, Tarver Twice, former undisputed light heavyyweight champ, former p4p star, Johnson, another former undisputed champ and former p4p star.

Williams has won 3 world titles in two weight classes and holds a win over former top 3 p4p star Winky Wright.

Juan Guzman holds world titles at two different weights and has beaten four former or current champions.

Donaire's resume is totally mediocre aside from the Vic win, and Vic's best achievments were after the Donaire loss.

It just grates me

Its still better than JML's though IMO. JML really has nobody besides Ponce and Penalosa. And I never really rated Ponce, I picked Juanma over him even though I wasn't so sure how good he was.

I agree on Dawson although people can overrate the Tarver wins IMO, same with Paul with Winky, they can be former this and that but there are circumstances there, namely age and in Winky's case age and ridiculous inactivity.

I used to have Guzman P4P but he has to work his way back up now. Actually that's a bit off as I haven't made a P4P list in forever but I considered him to be around that level.

I don't get too much into being unified or multiple weight class championships, its just the wins. I know me saying that has you jumping for the keyboard as you will just say Donaire doesn't have the resume anyway. Maybe so but its above a few guys you mentioned and not that far behind Williams. Dawson is the clear leader here.

Of course Adamek was weight drained, Tarver was old as balls and he lost to Johnson I kid (well kind of), his is the best.

And you can in no way convince me that Darchinyan's wins since don't help cement Donaire's status. If I replaced the name Darchinyan with Hopkins and Donaire with Roy Jones surely you would agree right? Otherwise Jones just a beat a young middleweight titlist who had to go to war with Segundo Mercado to win that title.

Anyway this is a good thread, a lot of the main board has bored me to tears lately.

[XaduBoxer]

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity??
.

[OumaFan]

I would be surprised if either Vazquez or Marquez look like top five P4P guys from here on out. They're both getting a bit up there (especially in "ring years" if you will as far as how much punishment they've taken) and I think they're best days are past. But we'll see. As far as the inactivity, I don't know, I guess you have to be consistent about that, one year doesn't sound like too much for a guy who was an established P4P guy. Its starting to push it though.

[OumaFan]

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity??
.

I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

[XaduBoxer]

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity??
.

I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

Ha ha That's how I addressed my friend Mr. Bilbo, I mean Master Bilbo ever since... He doesn't comment about it tho... He likes it very much I guess... My Master, My Lord... great sounding...
.

[OumaFan]

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity??
.

I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

Ha ha That's how I addressed my friend Mr. Bilbo, I mean Master Bilbo ever since... He doesn't comment about it tho... He likes it very much I guess... My Master, My Lord... great sounding...
.

oh, ok, that explains it.

I'm sure Bilbo does like it very much.

[HattonTheHammer]

im one of the only guys on saddos that is naive enough to believe those below 5`5 are better fighters just because they can throw more punches and produce the better fights.

Vitali Klitschko shits all over the likes of calderon, vasquez, donaire yet you never see him in the rankings because they are complete byest for the littler guys and have been for the last 10 years now.

[Kev]

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity??
.

I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

haha I pissed myself when I read that