roberto MANOS DE PIEDRA duran

[generalbulldog]

Continued from my previuos post..


On a separate note, it’s a shame that Benitez and Duran didn’t fight at the right time as that could have been an absolute classic, a lot of Boxing experts that I speak to say that Duran would have been to much for Benitez, if you watch that fight again even commentating at ringside Sugar Ray Leonard said “that’s not the real Duran, he’s just going through the motions, that’s not the real Duran”.

On that list that ICB has put together, there is only one person I think would trouble Duran and that’s Williams just because of the height and reach difference, similar to Hearn’s, although Duran took the Hearn’s fight at very short notice and unfortunately was to busy spending $100.000k with a few women a couple of weeks before the fight. Now this is my personal opinion, had Duran been properly prepared for that fight I believe it would have interesting to see if Hearn’s could have taken Duran’s right hand over the top, but we’ll never know, anyway back on point.

I feel Williams may give Duran trouble at Welter or Middleweight, but then if Margarito could make a very close fight of it, you can’t help but think, again I want to reiterate what could have an in shape, fully prepared Duran have done?

We have come to except, even if it is reluctantly so, that bad decisions are made in Boxing, it’s part and parcel of this sport we all love, I can give you countless examples as I’m sure you all could as well (in fact that’s going to be my next topic, working title ‘Bad Decisions in Boxing’). Just to give you the bigger picture, I would like peeps to watch the first Camacho Vs. Duran fight, I mean Duran had no business fighting anymore but even at the age of 45 he beat Camacho who is a Boxer/Runner, Duran was patently stalking Camacho at his advanced age and he was hitting Camacho with that right hand all night long, that was a shocker of a decision, everyone who has watched the fight say’s Duran should have got a clear UD, he was up and motivated for that fight, so my point is even at that age of 45 look what he was able to do against a very good Boxer. He didn’t have his speed any longer, but he won that on pure ring smarts etc. (although he didn’t get the decision, I urge you to watch that fight if you have not seen it before)

So when we talk about the fighters mentioned on this thread I don’t think they, including Mayweather Jr would have been able to handle Duran. I would go as far as to say that Duran would have stopped Mayweather in the very late rounds 12 or 14/15 depending on the length of the fight.

You got to remember not only was Duran an amazing fighter/boxer but also he had one of the greatest corner men of all time in Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown, Arcel who also trained the great Lightweight Benny Leonard was once asked the question who he felt was the better lightweight fighter out of Benny Leonard and Roberto Duran, his response was to the tune of, if you are putting me on the spot then I go with Duran, he trained both, so again I reiterate at Lightweight there is no-one who could beat Duran, at Light Welter and Welterweight again an argument could be made here that he was in theory unbeatable, it’s only when he moved up in weight and took on some huge challenges that fighters today would not even dream of that he suffered a few defeats, but remember he was past his prime and above his natural fighting weight. So I think it’s unfair to even suggest a natural Lightweight up against a now Light Heavy in Hopkins, but I suppose that’s testament to Duran’s greatness that peeps are making dream matches like this one for example, but then I can’t really blame you because Duran beat Barkley for the Middleweight title who had just knocked out Hearn’s and he beat Moore who went on to beat Benitez.

Just thinking more about some of the bigger guys mentioned like Hopkins, …….and …. Let’s assume these are 12 rounder’s then we must consider that when Duran fought at Middleweight, he just so happened to take on a natural, one of the greatest Middleweight’s of all time, namely Hagler, in that fight Duran was beating Hagler on two of the three judges scorecards after 12 rounds, so he would have won a SD had it been a 12 rounder.

As good as Trinidad was and some would argue a modern great IMO he would not have been able to withstood Duran’s punch, work rate etc and would be KO’d later on in the fight.

There is no fighter that can Slip, Slide, Bob, Weave, Cut the Ring off, effective Jab, power in both hands, great head attack, great body attack, speed, roll with the punches, demonstrate will and even more will, desire all this in the space of a couple of moves and motions, imagine all that and some in front of you, that’s what he bought to the ring so bottom line at his peak unbeatable!!!!.

Paddy, so I agree with you, Duran is probably the greatest fighter ever in my eyes.

That’s just my opinion!

Duran just turned 29 in his first fight against Leonard, so I don't know about all of this he was past his prime and unprepared as Duran has used as his excuse over the years in the 2nd fight. It's his job to be prepared and ready for a fight. Was he above his best natural fighting weight, yeah. But I also don't buy the theory that he could have been unbeatable at jr. welterweight or even welterweight as you suggested and said in theory, that's why I guess they are just that theories and opinions in dream matches.

And why use Trinidad against Duran at welterweight? Let's up the ante even more and use the king of all p4p fighters and use the original Sugar Ray. Let's use the 29 year old version of Duran that fought Leonard against the original Sugar at welterweight. Who wins?

Since this thread basically was about Duran in hypothetical dream matches. Why use Trinidad and not use the king of all prize fighters? I say the original Sugar gives a massive beat down to Duran if Duran wants to brawl with him, but since Sugar was so smart he'll probably just outbox the guy and makes him quit in the middle rounds just like the guy who borrows his nickname.

If we're going to speculate about dream matches let's use the best, might as well speculate about Duran's chances at that weight against the king of prize fighters. Duran was very good at welter but no way in theory or however you put it was unbeatable even if he was motivated at that weight against the best in history. Great fighter at lw, good at ww, but gets a massive beat down in history against the guy that every boxing expert out there has said has no weaknesses.

do u no what i never thought of ray robinson and duran, that is a dream fight, no one could say for sure who would win this fight,but just off top of my head id have to say sugar, but im going to go away and watch some of his fights again and ill come back with a definitive answer, i still cant believe u said witaker and mayweather at 135,140,147 would make duran look stupid. oh yeah and the second ray leonard fight duran was not at his best, even sugar ray said that, he said it was his plan to get duran in the ring when he did cause hed balloned in weight so much and he new he wasnt livin well, i have the interview i will try get it for u

I do know about Duran ballooning up in weight between fights and I did see the Leonard interview where Leonard said that they exploited that weakness, but still it's Duran's job to come prepared physically and mentally especially in a championship match against an elite talent like Leonard. IMO even if he came in prepared he still gets outbox by Leonard, because Leonard isn't going to fight Duran's fight again, he learned his lesson and the 2nd Sugar Ray is the better boxer.

The reason why I said Whittaker and Mayweather beats Duran at 135, 140, and 147 is this, Whittaker and Mayweather are not just only elite boxers but also elite defensive masterminds and Duran had trouble with elite boxers. Whittaker and Mayweather aren't going to be drawn into a brawl, that's not their style. They will outbox him and counterpunch and use their footspeed, fast hands, and quick reflexes to their advantages. So I asked myself this question, Can Duran outbox them? My answer is no.

And if there was a time machine where a 29 year old Duran is transported into the 40s and fought a prime Sugar Ray at welterweight, I'm sorry Duran gets outbox in an UD win for SRR or gets knocked out, visions of what Hearns did to Duran but at welterweight with the original Sugar Ray comes to mind, I dont' think that fight will be close. So I don't buy the "In theory Duran could be virtually unbeatable at welterweight" thing that the other poster was talking about. Sure maybe he can beat a Tito Trinidad at welter weight, but like I said might as well use the best and speculate how Duran would have done against SRR.

[paddy448]

Duran just turned 29 in his first fight against Leonard, so I don't know about all of this he was past his prime and unprepared as Duran has used as his excuse over the years in the 2nd fight. It's his job to be prepared and ready for a fight. Was he above his best natural fighting weight, yeah. But I also don't buy the theory that he could have been unbeatable at jr. welterweight or even welterweight as you suggested and said in theory, that's why I guess they are just that theories and opinions in dream matches.

And why use Trinidad against Duran at welterweight? Let's up the ante even more and use the king of all p4p fighters and use the original Sugar Ray. Let's use the 29 year old version of Duran that fought Leonard against the original Sugar at welterweight. Who wins?

Since this thread basically was about Duran in hypothetical dream matches. Why use Trinidad and not use the king of all prize fighters? I say the original Sugar gives a massive beat down to Duran if Duran wants to brawl with him, but since Sugar was so smart he'll probably just outbox the guy and makes him quit in the middle rounds just like the guy who borrows his nickname.

If we're going to speculate about dream matches let's use the best, might as well speculate about Duran's chances at that weight against the king of prize fighters. Duran was very good at welter but no way in theory or however you put it was unbeatable even if he was motivated at that weight against the best in history. Great fighter at lw, good at ww, but gets a massive beat down in history against the guy that every boxing expert out there has said has no weaknesses.

do u no what i never thought of ray robinson and duran, that is a dream fight, no one could say for sure who would win this fight,but just off top of my head id have to say sugar, but im going to go away and watch some of his fights again and ill come back with a definitive answer, i still cant believe u said witaker and mayweather at 135,140,147 would make duran look stupid. oh yeah and the second ray leonard fight duran was not at his best, even sugar ray said that, he said it was his plan to get duran in the ring when he did cause hed balloned in weight so much and he new he wasnt livin well, i have the interview i will try get it for u

I do know about Duran ballooning up in weight between fights and I did see the Leonard interview where Leonard said that they exploited that weakness, but still it's Duran's job to come prepared physically and mentally especially in a championship match against an elite talent like Leonard. IMO even if he came in prepared he still gets outbox by Leonard, because Leonard isn't going to fight Duran's fight again, he learned his lesson and the 2nd Sugar Ray is the better boxer.

The reason why I said Whittaker and Mayweather beats Duran at 135, 140, and 147 is this, Whittaker and Mayweather are not just only elite boxers but also elite defensive masterminds and Duran had trouble with elite boxers. Whittaker and Mayweather aren't going to be drawn into a brawl, that's not their style. They will outbox him and counterpunch and use their footspeed, fast hands, and quick reflexes to their advantages. So I asked myself this question, Can Duran outbox them? My answer is no.

And if there was a time machine where a 29 year old Duran is transported into the 40s and fought a prime Sugar Ray at welterweight, I'm sorry Duran gets outbox in an UD win for SRR or gets knocked out, visions of what Hearns did to Duran but at welterweight with the original Sugar Ray comes to mind, I dont' think that fight will be close. So I don't buy the "In theory Duran could be virtually unbeatable at welterweight" thing that the other poster was talking about. Sure maybe he can beat a Tito Trinidad at welter weight, but like I said might as well use the best and speculate how Duran would have done against SRR.

witaker and mayweather might be better boxers than duran not by much, but duran is a much better fighter, at 135 duran eats these two, 140 and 147 i still thinks he beats them, u have to admit in any weight to say they would make duran look foolish is over the top. if you havent i urge u to check some of his lightweight fights out. and u talk about how its durans job to come in fully prepared i understand that, but he still wasnt at his best, im not trying to say leonard couldnt beat duran when hes fully prepared im just sayin duran was a shadow of himself that night. and ur saying about how leonard didnt fight his fight the first time yeah its because duran didnt let him,he didnt give leonard room to breath that fight. duran won fair and square. as for the sugar ray robinson fight i cant really argue with u on that one, although no one nos for sure.

[ICB]

do u no what i never thought of ray robinson and duran, that is a dream fight, no one could say for sure who would win this fight,but just off top of my head id have to say sugar, but im going to go away and watch some of his fights again and ill come back with a definitive answer, i still cant believe u said witaker and mayweather at 135,140,147 would make duran look stupid. oh yeah and the second ray leonard fight duran was not at his best, even sugar ray said that, he said it was his plan to get duran in the ring when he did cause hed balloned in weight so much and he new he wasnt livin well, i have the interview i will try get it for u

I do know about Duran ballooning up in weight between fights and I did see the Leonard interview where Leonard said that they exploited that weakness, but still it's Duran's job to come prepared physically and mentally especially in a championship match against an elite talent like Leonard. IMO even if he came in prepared he still gets outbox by Leonard, because Leonard isn't going to fight Duran's fight again, he learned his lesson and the 2nd Sugar Ray is the better boxer.

The reason why I said Whittaker and Mayweather beats Duran at 135, 140, and 147 is this, Whittaker and Mayweather are not just only elite boxers but also elite defensive masterminds and Duran had trouble with elite boxers. Whittaker and Mayweather aren't going to be drawn into a brawl, that's not their style. They will outbox him and counterpunch and use their footspeed, fast hands, and quick reflexes to their advantages. So I asked myself this question, Can Duran outbox them? My answer is no.

And if there was a time machine where a 29 year old Duran is transported into the 40s and fought a prime Sugar Ray at welterweight, I'm sorry Duran gets outbox in an UD win for SRR or gets knocked out, visions of what Hearns did to Duran but at welterweight with the original Sugar Ray comes to mind, I dont' think that fight will be close. So I don't buy the "In theory Duran could be virtually unbeatable at welterweight" thing that the other poster was talking about. Sure maybe he can beat a Tito Trinidad at welter weight, but like I said might as well use the best and speculate how Duran would have done against SRR.

witaker and mayweather might be better boxers than duran not by much, but duran is a much better fighter, at 135 duran eats these two, 140 and 147 i still thinks he beats them, u have to admit in any weight to say they would make duran look foolish is over the top. if you havent i urge u to check some of his lightweight fights out. and u talk about how its durans job to come in fully prepared i understand that, but he still wasnt at his best, im not trying to say leonard couldnt beat duran when hes fully prepared im just sayin duran was a shadow of himself that night. and ur saying about how leonard didnt fight his fight the first time yeah its because duran didnt let him,he didnt give leonard room to breath that fight. duran won fair and square. as for the sugar ray robinson fight i cant really argue with u on that one, although no one nos for sure.

I don't think you have seen a prime Pernell Whitaker at Lightweight, he was amazing at that weightclass. and he beat some very good fighters at that weightclass like Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez x2, Freddie Pendleton, Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Jorge Paez.

And he hardly even got hit while fighting those fighters aswell, and he could also fight at a much higher pace at Lightweight. while being amazingly hard to hit, sometimes he could throw up to 90 punches a round when he had to.

Pernell Whitaker would outbox Roberto Duran at Lightweight, no doubt in my mind. And "The Wind" can tell me about all these cuban boxers Roberto Duran beat at Lightweight, but i can safely say there not even close to Pernell Whitaker.

[paddy448]

I do know about Duran ballooning up in weight between fights and I did see the Leonard interview where Leonard said that they exploited that weakness, but still it's Duran's job to come prepared physically and mentally especially in a championship match against an elite talent like Leonard. IMO even if he came in prepared he still gets outbox by Leonard, because Leonard isn't going to fight Duran's fight again, he learned his lesson and the 2nd Sugar Ray is the better boxer.

The reason why I said Whittaker and Mayweather beats Duran at 135, 140, and 147 is this, Whittaker and Mayweather are not just only elite boxers but also elite defensive masterminds and Duran had trouble with elite boxers. Whittaker and Mayweather aren't going to be drawn into a brawl, that's not their style. They will outbox him and counterpunch and use their footspeed, fast hands, and quick reflexes to their advantages. So I asked myself this question, Can Duran outbox them? My answer is no.

And if there was a time machine where a 29 year old Duran is transported into the 40s and fought a prime Sugar Ray at welterweight, I'm sorry Duran gets outbox in an UD win for SRR or gets knocked out, visions of what Hearns did to Duran but at welterweight with the original Sugar Ray comes to mind, I dont' think that fight will be close. So I don't buy the "In theory Duran could be virtually unbeatable at welterweight" thing that the other poster was talking about. Sure maybe he can beat a Tito Trinidad at welter weight, but like I said might as well use the best and speculate how Duran would have done against SRR.

witaker and mayweather might be better boxers than duran not by much, but duran is a much better fighter, at 135 duran eats these two, 140 and 147 i still thinks he beats them, u have to admit in any weight to say they would make duran look foolish is over the top. if you havent i urge u to check some of his lightweight fights out. and u talk about how its durans job to come in fully prepared i understand that, but he still wasnt at his best, im not trying to say leonard couldnt beat duran when hes fully prepared im just sayin duran was a shadow of himself that night. and ur saying about how leonard didnt fight his fight the first time yeah its because duran didnt let him,he didnt give leonard room to breath that fight. duran won fair and square. as for the sugar ray robinson fight i cant really argue with u on that one, although no one nos for sure.

I don't think you have seen a prime Pernell Whitaker at Lightweight, he was amazing at that weightclass. and he beat some very good fighters at that weightclass like Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez x2, Freddie Pendleton, Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Jorge Paez.

And he hardly even got hit while fighting those fighters aswell, and he could also fight at a much higher pace at Lightweight. while being amazingly hard to hit, sometimes he could throw up to 90 punches a round when he had to.

Pernell Whitaker would outbox Roberto Duran at Lightweight, no doubt in my mind. And "The Wind" can tell me about all these cuban boxers Roberto Duran beat at Lightweight, but i can safely say there not even close to Pernell Whitaker.

i agree with u on whitaker, he was something else. and where my statement saying duran would eat him at 135 was a bit strong, i do think duran beats him still

[paddy448]

I do know about Duran ballooning up in weight between fights and I did see the Leonard interview where Leonard said that they exploited that weakness, but still it's Duran's job to come prepared physically and mentally especially in a championship match against an elite talent like Leonard. IMO even if he came in prepared he still gets outbox by Leonard, because Leonard isn't going to fight Duran's fight again, he learned his lesson and the 2nd Sugar Ray is the better boxer.

The reason why I said Whittaker and Mayweather beats Duran at 135, 140, and 147 is this, Whittaker and Mayweather are not just only elite boxers but also elite defensive masterminds and Duran had trouble with elite boxers. Whittaker and Mayweather aren't going to be drawn into a brawl, that's not their style. They will outbox him and counterpunch and use their footspeed, fast hands, and quick reflexes to their advantages. So I asked myself this question, Can Duran outbox them? My answer is no.

And if there was a time machine where a 29 year old Duran is transported into the 40s and fought a prime Sugar Ray at welterweight, I'm sorry Duran gets outbox in an UD win for SRR or gets knocked out, visions of what Hearns did to Duran but at welterweight with the original Sugar Ray comes to mind, I dont' think that fight will be close. So I don't buy the "In theory Duran could be virtually unbeatable at welterweight" thing that the other poster was talking about. Sure maybe he can beat a Tito Trinidad at welter weight, but like I said might as well use the best and speculate how Duran would have done against SRR.

witaker and mayweather might be better boxers than duran not by much, but duran is a much better fighter, at 135 duran eats these two, 140 and 147 i still thinks he beats them, u have to admit in any weight to say they would make duran look foolish is over the top. if you havent i urge u to check some of his lightweight fights out. and u talk about how its durans job to come in fully prepared i understand that, but he still wasnt at his best, im not trying to say leonard couldnt beat duran when hes fully prepared im just sayin duran was a shadow of himself that night. and ur saying about how leonard didnt fight his fight the first time yeah its because duran didnt let him,he didnt give leonard room to breath that fight. duran won fair and square. as for the sugar ray robinson fight i cant really argue with u on that one, although no one nos for sure.

I don't think you have seen a prime Pernell Whitaker at Lightweight, he was amazing at that weightclass. and he beat some very good fighters at that weightclass like Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez x2, Freddie Pendleton, Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Jorge Paez.

And he hardly even got hit while fighting those fighters aswell, and he could also fight at a much higher pace at Lightweight. while being amazingly hard to hit, sometimes he could throw up to 90 punches a round when he had to.

Pernell Whitaker would outbox Roberto Duran at Lightweight, no doubt in my mind. And "The Wind" can tell me about all these cuban boxers Roberto Duran beat at Lightweight, but i can safely say there not even close to Pernell Whitaker.

oh yeah icb durans record is better than whitakers at lightweight, duran fought fighters like ernesto marcel,hiroshi kobayashi,ken buchanan,esteban de jesus x3,guts ishimatsu,pedro mendoza,benny huertas,ray lampkin and so on i stongly disagree with u on whitakers lightweight reign being better than durans

[ICB]

witaker and mayweather might be better boxers than duran not by much, but duran is a much better fighter, at 135 duran eats these two, 140 and 147 i still thinks he beats them, u have to admit in any weight to say they would make duran look foolish is over the top. if you havent i urge u to check some of his lightweight fights out. and u talk about how its durans job to come in fully prepared i understand that, but he still wasnt at his best, im not trying to say leonard couldnt beat duran when hes fully prepared im just sayin duran was a shadow of himself that night. and ur saying about how leonard didnt fight his fight the first time yeah its because duran didnt let him,he didnt give leonard room to breath that fight. duran won fair and square. as for the sugar ray robinson fight i cant really argue with u on that one, although no one nos for sure.

I don't think you have seen a prime Pernell Whitaker at Lightweight, he was amazing at that weightclass. and he beat some very good fighters at that weightclass like Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez x2, Freddie Pendleton, Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Jorge Paez.

And he hardly even got hit while fighting those fighters aswell, and he could also fight at a much higher pace at Lightweight. while being amazingly hard to hit, sometimes he could throw up to 90 punches a round when he had to.

Pernell Whitaker would outbox Roberto Duran at Lightweight, no doubt in my mind. And "The Wind" can tell me about all these cuban boxers Roberto Duran beat at Lightweight, but i can safely say there not even close to Pernell Whitaker.

oh yeah icb durans record is better than whitakers at lightweight, duran fought fighters like ernesto marcel,hiroshi kobayashi,ken buchanan,esteban de jesus x3,guts ishimatsu,pedro mendoza,benny huertas,ray lampkin and so on i stongly disagree with u on whitakers lightweight reign being better than durans

I never said Pernell Whitaker has a better Lightweight reign, he couldn't have because he wasn't there long enough. But Azumah Nelson is a better fighter than anything on Robert Duran's Lightweight resume.

[paddy448]

I don't think you have seen a prime Pernell Whitaker at Lightweight, he was amazing at that weightclass. and he beat some very good fighters at that weightclass like Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez x2, Freddie Pendleton, Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Jorge Paez.

And he hardly even got hit while fighting those fighters aswell, and he could also fight at a much higher pace at Lightweight. while being amazingly hard to hit, sometimes he could throw up to 90 punches a round when he had to.

Pernell Whitaker would outbox Roberto Duran at Lightweight, no doubt in my mind. And "The Wind" can tell me about all these cuban boxers Roberto Duran beat at Lightweight, but i can safely say there not even close to Pernell Whitaker.

oh yeah icb durans record is better than whitakers at lightweight, duran fought fighters like ernesto marcel,hiroshi kobayashi,ken buchanan,esteban de jesus x3,guts ishimatsu,pedro mendoza,benny huertas,ray lampkin and so on i stongly disagree with u on whitakers lightweight reign being better than durans

I never said Pernell Whitaker has a better Lightweight reign, he couldn't have because he wasn't there long enough. But Azumah Nelson is a better fighter than anything on Robert Duran's Lightweight resume.

maybe

[OumaFan]

Hagler fought a bit of a strange fight against Duran but yeah still that was a very good performance by him