Can one really be ranked P4P when you demand catch weights?

[Julius Rain]

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

wow are you serious with that question?

before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?

ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."

See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.

I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.

How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.

Esp considering all things said. Pac weighing 142 against Oscar more recently than Cotto or mosley have been. Cotto hasn't been that small in over three years. Mosely hasn't been less than 146 in over ten years. So asking them to come down to 142 or 143, as I said considering what Manny weighed against Oscar and how he didn't appear to lose any of his ability in weighing 142. So therefore meeting at 142-143 isn't really a catch weight but rather a weight with a catch to give Manny the bigger advantage.

It's not that I'm against Manny or anything it's just if there's a hint that cotto or mosely could look like oscar, id rather not see it. And with a fighter as old as mosley 38, he could fall of cliff overnight. I'd much rather see fighters at the their own OPTIMUM WEIGHT preform against each other. Not "well I'll come in at 90% if you agree to come in at 85%." Or "I'll take a little speed off, if you take some of the power away", I want to see 100% vs 100%. If Manny isn't big enough to be 100% at WW and Cotto or Mosley are to big to be 100% lower than 147 then it shouldn't be made.

the thing is we really can't say who will come in 100% in any fight, thats why they are negotiating a catchweight. Pac looked good beating oscar but is there a double standard? Pac beat a drain Oscar or is he really good enough to fight at 147 against Cotto.

We really dont know at this point, but right now pac is at 140 and imo is still outweight. If he fights any higher he'll be more outweight, thats what gets me because people are talking about pac has the advantage but his far smaller then people acknowledge.

I think people are forgetting fight strategy matters the most. After seeing what pac did to Oscar and Hatton they seem to forget that any of these fight is still very risky/dangerous for pac.

[The Congressman]

Cotto would outweigh Pac 10 to 15 pounds come fight night if the fight took place at 147. Do you guys think that's fair? I think the catchweight is necessary.

[JonesJrMayweather]

Cotto would outweigh Pac 10 to 15 pounds come fight night if the fight took place at 147. Do you guys think that's fair? I think the catchweight is necessary.

No..because when mosely fought mayorga at 154..mayorga came in at 170 on fight night and still got KO'ed

[C-Lo]

Bilbo is dominating this thread.

Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.

Pacquiao has done the same. I'm basically done defending the catchweight. I've done it for countless amounts of posts but again, Bilbo is absolutely spot on IMO. Honestly, Pacquiao just keeps on fighting bigger guys throughout his career and these fighters are the biggest names in the game!!! How can people continue to hate on him?! He's on top! And is still looking for the big fights. Floyd got to the top and looked and is looking for easier fights for more money. RJJ has a very debatable resume. Pernell and Shane gets no complaints from me. They looked to fight the best and beat them as well. Again, I still can't understand anyone who can't appreciate Manny...

I think Pac should still be #1 p4p with the demanding of catchweights. I just don't think its even close to sensible for a weightclass title to be on the line when his team is demanding a catchweight for a title. That is a shenanigan that further sets boxing back. But what I do think this demanding of catchweights does is question his confidence and tarnish credibility. The all time greats went directly to the weight classes and fought the best in it. They never tried to gain an advantage by squeezing the bigger guy down to a weight determined by their team. If Pac's team was asking a small welterweight to a catchweight then thats reasonable. But they are going completely opposite. Roach has admitted his tactic by saying PBF is the only welterweight he would let Pac fight at 147 and that Mosley and Cotto have to meet at a catchweight. Leonard was way smaller than Hagler. He went to his weight class. That is all time greatness the fans want to see.

You mean the same Leonard that demanded Donny Lalonde to fight at 168 for his LHW title. That Leonard? How about JCC demanding Whitaker fight at a catchweight of 145 for his WBC ww title? Or how about Oscar demanding a 39 year old Hopkins come in at 158 for his MW titles? I thought you said the all time greats didn't demand catchweights?

Pacman isn't the first to demand catchweights, and there isn't any story out there saying that the WW titles are on the line.

Again with the titles! Bulldog is right! When has the titles been put up for grabs?! People still complain about titles being fought for outside of the proper weight class but the title isn't on the line...

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

Why is there so much hate about catchweights?

I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?

The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.

If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.

They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.

We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.

That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.

What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.

Well my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.

Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.

So are mouth pieces.

And rounds.

Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?

lol

The weight classes are there for a reason.

Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.

Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.

That is not the Christian way.

And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.

Pacquiao wants to fight Cotto?! Cotto wants to fight Pacquiao!! Everyone wants the fight with Manny because it brings them the most money and he is the P4P best. If Cotto doesn't accept the terms, Pac has numerous options.