Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[ElTerribleMorales]

I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.

It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.

If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.

So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.

I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".

A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".

When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?

In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”

Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)

So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*

Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.

When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?

I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.

Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.

Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his intention is.

I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.

(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)

You are talking about Mosely and in his case I agree, in his late thirties and fighting at 154 not long ago going under 147 would be too much of a risk.

But this is NOT the same with Cotto. Only a couple years ago he was world champion at 140 lbs. He weighed in against Clottey at 146 even.

Him dropping another pound or two is NOT a big deal. He's NOT a big welterweight, he's only 5 ft 7 and guys like Cintron, Williams, Margarito etc are huge compared to him.

NONE of the weight draining issues apply to Cotto coming down to 145 lbs to fight Pacquaio.

He's young, only in his twenties, was fighting at 140 not long ago and would have NO EXCUSE if he couldn't make 145 lbs giving that it is only one single pound less than he weighed in against Clottey.

well but Pacquiao's not only asking for 145 anymore, he's asking for it to be at 143, and 3 lbs even at 28 is still a hard task to complete

[OumaFan]

I'm not going to go into the general argument again as its been done to death but 143 was just a report coming out of the camp, that could easily be a negotiating ploy, we'll see how it comes off. If Manny insists on making it 143 then he's pushing it too far and Cotto should turn it down. But Bilbo is right, there's always context, its one thing to ask Paul Williams or Antonio Margarito to come down to 145 and its another to ask Cotto. Shane being somewhere in between probably.

[Kev]

I also like how your source for this article was Shane Mosely, who proved beyond doubt it WAS possible to move down not a couple pounds but SEVEN in his late thirties and still become the welterweight king.

Anyway by your logic Cotto only beat Mosely because it was at 'catchweight'.

This is what makes me laugh. Oscar drops to 147 to fight Manny coming up from 135 and it's a 'catchweight' fight.


Mosely also drops to 147, just like Oscar, with the same number fights, same age, same battle scars, and fights Cotto and NOBODY talks about Mosely giving up weight at all. It's ok, because he looked good.

If Oscar fucked up his training and couldn't make the drop shame on Oscar.

It has NO bearing on a potential Pacquaio vs Cotto fight.

Manny vs Cotto is one of the best possible fights that can be made in all of boxing right now, yet you all continue to try and put obstacle in the way of it.

Look, they are both elite world class p4p fighters, yet Cotto is much bigger. Therefore under normal circumstances we don't get a fight. If a catchweight allows us to witness this great boxing event I'm all for it.

Would you scoff also at the idea of a Mayweather vs Paul Williams fight at 157 lbs? Would you moan about Floyd dragging Paul down 3 lbs from 160?

Of course not (well maybe you would) it would be a great fight and Floyd would be showing some serious balls to move up and fight the much bigger man.

You all have one rule for Manny and another for everybody else.

[generalbulldog]

I'm not a big Pacman fan, but the latest excuse why Pacman beat his latest foe was that he fought a fight while weight draining Ricky hatton. Because of Ricky Hatton's life style and ballooning up in weight it was an unfair even if it was at 140.

[AdamGB]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

[OumaFan]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

And by the way I'm not even broaching the subject of if its right or not. You can go all into the theory that he may want Cotto to drop farther because it will affect him more because Oscar was already cutting to make 147 whereas Cotto isn't but in the end its a bit irrelevant because Oscar would have chuckled if Pac had said 143 or nothing.

[OumaFan]

and of course he's all about names and money now. I don't dispute that at all, there comes a point in most elite guys careers when they're just not going to fight Timothy Bradley anymore, no offense to him. How much legacy plays into it is a mystery. I'm sure he's worried about his legacy but I tend to think for most guy's its money first.

[Kev]

and of course he's all about names and money now. I don't dispute that at all, there comes a point in most elite guys careers when they're just not going to fight Timothy Bradley anymore, no offense to him. How much legacy plays into it is a mystery. I'm sure he's worried about his legacy but I tend to think for most guy's its money first.

Exactly and this is a point I made before. When you've already torn through several weight classes and won several world titles, you are no longer interested in weight classes and belts.

You want the best opposition, other elite champions who also have won multiple world titles and belts. If they happen to be in different weight classes then catchweight fights can bridge that gap.

I'm all for it, from now on I (and I'm sure Manny) don't care if he wins any more belts its all about beating the other superstars of the sport, making a fortune and making his name in boxing history.

The FIGHTERS are what make boxing, NOT the weight classes and the belts.

[JazMerkin]

One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.

[The Congressman]

Great post Bilbo. Great posts. Truly, what a remarkable Pac is having.

[JazMerkin]

Bilbo, I've given up arguing any of your other points (no not because of the infallible logic, just because its futile), however one thing you said bothered me & simply isn't true. You said Pac would be the first ATG outside of America which is bollocks. Roberto Duran, Eder Jofre, Carlos Monzon, Alexis Arguello & Jimmy Wilde are all proof that is just not true & that's without mentioning any of the great Mexicans. The guy is amazing, but he's not the first from outside the US to be so.

[AdamGB]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

[The Congressman]

Pacquiao-Cotto might not happen afterall. Latest word in pacland is team pac are now eyeing Mosley.

[Kev]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways? Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?

Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.

The point you guys are missing is this.

What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.

NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.

De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out).

Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).

If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.

[Mr140]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.