Who else could replicate Haye's performance?

[amat]

This thread is proof that while Bilbo loves long posts, he doesn't read others.

[ICB]

Sorry, but Valuev gets way more shit than he deserves, now I'd like to preface this by saying he's not great or particularly good. What he isn't is complete shit. He is by no means the worst Heavyweight Champ in history, have you not seen footage of Primo Carnera?? Valuev looks like Ali next to him. I'd also say that Pinklon Thomas & possibly Tony Tubbs were worse, & reportedly there was a guy in the early part of the last century called Marvin Hart who was truly awful.

Valuev is a lot better than he gets credit for. He has decent fundamental boxing skills, & doesn't have bad movement or speed for a man his size who is clearly not a natural athlete in a way that Lennox or the Klitschkos are. Now, I'm not saying he's great or a worthy world champ, but he's by no means the worst ever. Say what you like but he's never been clearly beaten & yes whilst his size obviously has played a huge part & his record does have some heavy padding, he has also clearly beaten some decent guys & often by outboxing them. Carnera couldn't have outboxed a heavy bag.

* Key word throughout that is DECENT. He's not great or even particularly good, but he isn't completely shit, especially compared to many of the other big men of the past.

Tubbs and Thomas weren't that bad. There are some other horrors that held versions of the belts, i.e Coetzer, Tate, Bentt, Weaver and many more. Agreed though Valuev aint the worst

None of the 80's Heavyweights were that bad really, they all had talent let down by not caring about training, or ending up on drugs. The prime 80's Heavyweights would easily rule today IMO.

Tony Tubbs while being past his prime, and having drug problems. Outboxed a prime Riddick Bowe, and was robbed of a decision. Tony Tubbs had some great handspeed and alot of talent, had he kept his weight down he could of been dominant.

Same with Pinklon Thomas he also had drug problems. And at his peak outboxed a prime Tim Witherspoon, he also had the talent but he wasted it away. Which is pretty much the story for most of the 80's Heavyweights.

Greg Page
Tim Witherspoon
Tony Tubbs
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker

ETC.

[ninjaspy3]

Bilbo you have lost the plot again, my friend.

I can see some logic behind the madness but to post it is a clear sign of insanity. (I mean that as a friend)

Joe Calzaghe said he could beat Wladimir Klitschko and most rubbished his thoughts.

Drop Valuev or Wladimir in a cell with Ike Ibeabuchi and neither comes out alive.

ha yeah I agree Wlad would kill Joe. But Valuev just wouldnt land on him if Calzaghe chose to keep away.

Maybe these guys wouldn't do enough to beat him, but they would all comfortably survive if thats all they wanted to do, and imo that is shameful because they would get torn up against a decent real heavyweight champ.

Do you think Valuev would knock out Hopkins, Calzaghe, Adamek, Ward, even Floyd or Mosely if they were as negative as Haye?

Making a statement like that is missing the point. You cannot win the fight with running only. You are saying that Haye -only- ran the whole time and sorry but that is false. If that were true, he couldnt win. But he did win. 2 of 3 judges called it and the 3rd called a draw. And the punches that Haye threw were not weak. Valuev simply has a solid chin. That is why no one has KO'd him at all. I repeat, saying that Haye only ran for 12 rounds is false. He ran, but he hit as well, and obviously he hit enough to convince for a win -In Germany- I am only stating the obvious, or so I thought.

[Kev]

Bilbo you have lost the plot again, my friend.

I can see some logic behind the madness but to post it is a clear sign of insanity. (I mean that as a friend)

Joe Calzaghe said he could beat Wladimir Klitschko and most rubbished his thoughts.

Drop Valuev or Wladimir in a cell with Ike Ibeabuchi and neither comes out alive.

ha yeah I agree Wlad would kill Joe. But Valuev just wouldnt land on him if Calzaghe chose to keep away.

Maybe these guys wouldn't do enough to beat him, but they would all comfortably survive if thats all they wanted to do, and imo that is shameful because they would get torn up against a decent real heavyweight champ.

Do you think Valuev would knock out Hopkins, Calzaghe, Adamek, Ward, even Floyd or Mosely if they were as negative as Haye?

Making a statement like that is missing the point. You cannot win the fight with running only. You are saying that Haye -only- ran the whole time and sorry but that is false. If that were true, he couldnt win. But he did win. 2 of 3 judges called it and the 3rd called a draw. And the punches that Haye threw were not weak. Valuev simply has a solid chin. That is why no one has KO'd him at all. I repeat, saying that Haye only ran for 12 rounds is false. He ran, but he hit as well, and obviously he hit enough to convince for a win -In Germany- I am only stating the obvious, or so I thought.

The point is that Haye didn't beat Valuev any better than John Ruiz, Evander Holyfield or Larry Donald did, to say nothing of Chagaev who actually got the decision against him.

In those earlier fights even though Valuev clearly lost he held on to his title because he was seen as more marketable than Ruiz, an ancient Holyfield or Larry Donald.

Haye however is the new cash cow and even though he turned in a performance that would have been insufficient had another boxer performed the same, he got the decision as he's the new market friendly boxer in the heavyweight division.

Do you really think Haye performed any better Ruiz, Chagaev, Holyfield and Donald?

He didn't, I'd say his performance was actually the poorest of the five but he's getting talked up now as if he did a great thing.

There are probably 20 heavyweights who could beat Valuev better than Haye did, and all of the fighters I mentioned before could cope with him comfortably, maybe not be aggressive enough to win, but they would survive without incident.

Valuev is the least threatening heavyweight champ in years, which other world champ has had such a poor ko ratio as Valuev against second rate opposition?

He should 5 losses on his record that we know of. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he has gotten gifts throughout his career.

Beating him like Haye did was a disappointing performance, imo he looked worse than Ruiz, Holyfield, Donald and Chagaev before him. Not impressed at all.

[Master]

To beat Valuev you have to be decent as his record shows. No non-heavyweight can beat him, just too big.

[ninjaspy3]

ha yeah I agree Wlad would kill Joe. But Valuev just wouldnt land on him if Calzaghe chose to keep away.

Maybe these guys wouldn't do enough to beat him, but they would all comfortably survive if thats all they wanted to do, and imo that is shameful because they would get torn up against a decent real heavyweight champ.

Do you think Valuev would knock out Hopkins, Calzaghe, Adamek, Ward, even Floyd or Mosely if they were as negative as Haye?

Making a statement like that is missing the point. You cannot win the fight with running only. You are saying that Haye -only- ran the whole time and sorry but that is false. If that were true, he couldnt win. But he did win. 2 of 3 judges called it and the 3rd called a draw. And the punches that Haye threw were not weak. Valuev simply has a solid chin. That is why no one has KO'd him at all. I repeat, saying that Haye only ran for 12 rounds is false. He ran, but he hit as well, and obviously he hit enough to convince for a win -In Germany- I am only stating the obvious, or so I thought.

The point is that Haye didn't beat Valuev any better than John Ruiz, Evander Holyfield or Larry Donald did, to say nothing of Chagaev who actually got the decision against him.

In those earlier fights even though Valuev clearly lost he held on to his title because he was seen as more marketable than Ruiz, an ancient Holyfield or Larry Donald.

Haye however is the new cash cow and even though he turned in a performance that would have been insufficient had another boxer performed the same, he got the decision as he's the new market friendly boxer in the heavyweight division.

Do you really think Haye performed any better Ruiz, Chagaev, Holyfield and Donald?

He didn't, I'd say his performance was actually the poorest of the five but he's getting talked up now as if he did a great thing.

There are probably 20 heavyweights who could beat Valuev better than Haye did, and all of the fighters I mentioned before could cope with him comfortably, maybe not be aggressive enough to win, but they would survive without incident.

Valuev is the least threatening heavyweight champ in years, which other world champ has had such a poor ko ratio as Valuev against second rate opposition?

He should 5 losses on his record that we know of. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he has gotten gifts throughout his career.

Beating him like Haye did was a disappointing performance, imo he looked worse than Ruiz, Holyfield, Donald and Chagaev before him. Not impressed at all.

so........ I decided to go back and watch the fight in which Valuev was beaten best, by your description (vs Chagaev) The fight was more exciting but I noticed a few interesting things:

-1 judge gave a draw and the other 2 went for Chagaev.. interesting, sounds familiar

-There were more punches thrown -And- more punches landed on each other by both fighters

Basically Chagaev took more risk and therefore got the praise, but also the extra punishment from standing and trading with Valuev, which for that fight was actually acceptable -but-

Fast forward to Chagaev's fight with Wladimir. In that fight, standing his ground caused Chagaev to take more punishment than he could handle and lead quickly to Wladimir bringing the fight to an early end.

Imagine for a moment if Chagaev had practiced the technique that Haye used on Valuev -being highly mobile-

While many people think this is cowardly, just imagine if Chagaev could actually move fast and slip in a nice hard hit on Wladimir. His chances would have been way better to daze Wlad for a moment and the maybe take advantage of it.

What Haye did against Valuev could potentially be used to actually give a chance to get a solid shot in on Wladimir. See where I'm going with this?

[Kev]

Making a statement like that is missing the point. You cannot win the fight with running only. You are saying that Haye -only- ran the whole time and sorry but that is false. If that were true, he couldnt win. But he did win. 2 of 3 judges called it and the 3rd called a draw. And the punches that Haye threw were not weak. Valuev simply has a solid chin. That is why no one has KO'd him at all. I repeat, saying that Haye only ran for 12 rounds is false. He ran, but he hit as well, and obviously he hit enough to convince for a win -In Germany- I am only stating the obvious, or so I thought.

The point is that Haye didn't beat Valuev any better than John Ruiz, Evander Holyfield or Larry Donald did, to say nothing of Chagaev who actually got the decision against him.

In those earlier fights even though Valuev clearly lost he held on to his title because he was seen as more marketable than Ruiz, an ancient Holyfield or Larry Donald.

Haye however is the new cash cow and even though he turned in a performance that would have been insufficient had another boxer performed the same, he got the decision as he's the new market friendly boxer in the heavyweight division.

Do you really think Haye performed any better Ruiz, Chagaev, Holyfield and Donald?

He didn't, I'd say his performance was actually the poorest of the five but he's getting talked up now as if he did a great thing.

There are probably 20 heavyweights who could beat Valuev better than Haye did, and all of the fighters I mentioned before could cope with him comfortably, maybe not be aggressive enough to win, but they would survive without incident.

Valuev is the least threatening heavyweight champ in years, which other world champ has had such a poor ko ratio as Valuev against second rate opposition?

He should 5 losses on his record that we know of. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he has gotten gifts throughout his career.

Beating him like Haye did was a disappointing performance, imo he looked worse than Ruiz, Holyfield, Donald and Chagaev before him. Not impressed at all.

so........ I decided to go back and watch the fight in which Valuev was beaten best, by your description (vs Chagaev) The fight was more exciting but I noticed a few interesting things:

-1 judge gave a draw and the other 2 went for Chagaev.. interesting, sounds familiar

-There were more punches thrown -And- more punches landed on each other by both fighters

Basically Chagaev took more risk and therefore got the praise, but also the extra punishment from standing and trading with Valuev, which for that fight was actually acceptable -but-

Fast forward to Chagaev's fight with Wladimir. In that fight, standing his ground caused Chagaev to take more punishment than he could handle and lead quickly to Wladimir bringing the fight to an early end.

Imagine for a moment if Chagaev had practiced the technique that Haye used on Valuev -being highly mobile-

While many people think this is cowardly, just imagine if Chagaev could actually move fast and slip in a nice hard hit on Wladimir. His chances would have been way better to daze Wlad for a moment and the maybe take advantage of it.

What Haye did against Valuev could potentially be used to actually give a chance to get a solid shot in on Wladimir. See where I'm going with this?

The ONLY reason Haye and Evander were able to keep out of range of Valuev is because he so fucking slow!

I'd love to see Haye try that negativity with Wlad or Vitali, he'll just look like a scared fool.

They arn't going to plod and lumber cluelessly around the ring like Valuev did.

If Haye tries to box against Wlad or Vitali like he did against Valuev he has NO chance.

[yvonne]

Joe Calzaghe!

[ninjaspy3]

The point is that Haye didn't beat Valuev any better than John Ruiz, Evander Holyfield or Larry Donald did, to say nothing of Chagaev who actually got the decision against him.

In those earlier fights even though Valuev clearly lost he held on to his title because he was seen as more marketable than Ruiz, an ancient Holyfield or Larry Donald.

Haye however is the new cash cow and even though he turned in a performance that would have been insufficient had another boxer performed the same, he got the decision as he's the new market friendly boxer in the heavyweight division.

Do you really think Haye performed any better Ruiz, Chagaev, Holyfield and Donald?

He didn't, I'd say his performance was actually the poorest of the five but he's getting talked up now as if he did a great thing.

There are probably 20 heavyweights who could beat Valuev better than Haye did, and all of the fighters I mentioned before could cope with him comfortably, maybe not be aggressive enough to win, but they would survive without incident.

Valuev is the least threatening heavyweight champ in years, which other world champ has had such a poor ko ratio as Valuev against second rate opposition?

He should 5 losses on his record that we know of. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he has gotten gifts throughout his career.

Beating him like Haye did was a disappointing performance, imo he looked worse than Ruiz, Holyfield, Donald and Chagaev before him. Not impressed at all.

so........ I decided to go back and watch the fight in which Valuev was beaten best, by your description (vs Chagaev) The fight was more exciting but I noticed a few interesting things:

-1 judge gave a draw and the other 2 went for Chagaev.. interesting, sounds familiar

-There were more punches thrown -And- more punches landed on each other by both fighters

Basically Chagaev took more risk and therefore got the praise, but also the extra punishment from standing and trading with Valuev, which for that fight was actually acceptable -but-

Fast forward to Chagaev's fight with Wladimir. In that fight, standing his ground caused Chagaev to take more punishment than he could handle and lead quickly to Wladimir bringing the fight to an early end.

Imagine for a moment if Chagaev had practiced the technique that Haye used on Valuev -being highly mobile-

While many people think this is cowardly, just imagine if Chagaev could actually move fast and slip in a nice hard hit on Wladimir. His chances would have been way better to daze Wlad for a moment and the maybe take advantage of it.

What Haye did against Valuev could potentially be used to actually give a chance to get a solid shot in on Wladimir. See where I'm going with this?

The ONLY reason Haye and Evander were able to keep out of range of Valuev is because he so fucking slow!

I'd love to see Haye try that negativity with Wlad or Vitali, he'll just look like a scared fool.

They arn't going to plod and lumber cluelessly around the ring like Valuev did.

If Haye tries to box against Wlad or Vitali like he did against Valuev he has NO chance.

I disagree with you there. I'm saying that to have a chance against Wlad, one must be evasive in some form or another and not stand right in fornt of him and take jabs all night long. Someone who will at least try to be evasive, well thats a start. How else do you think -anybody- is ever going to have a chance against Wladimir?? Or are you saying that it is impossible?

I'm trying to paint evasiveness as a positive whereas you only view it as a negative or something which is only effective against a low grade fighter.