How high would you rank Manny in ATG if he beats PBF?

[kingfrnk]

probably between 20 -10

[mike_scfld]

Pac at the moment is within top 7, to me way above Duran. Duran has a questionable heart (no mas, no mas) just a pure brawler doesnt have the beauty of in and out, lateral movement, etc. Pac is way better than Duran in style and resume. If he beats Mayweather he is absolutely within top 3. Pac is a combination of Duran and Leonard to me.

Floyd beating Manny doesnt make him at top 20. He should step up and fights better oppositions bigger than him like what Manny did all his career. at the moment he is fighting good smaller opponents bloating them up to his comfortable weights, eg. Hatton and JMM, far from being a great fighter.

thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MAN

Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.

[mike_scfld]

Pac at the moment is within top 7, to me way above Duran. Duran has a questionable heart (no mas, no mas) just a pure brawler doesnt have the beauty of in and out, lateral movement, etc. Pac is way better than Duran in style and resume. If he beats Mayweather he is absolutely within top 3. Pac is a combination of Duran and Leonard to me.

Floyd beating Manny doesnt make him at top 20. He should step up and fights better oppositions bigger than him like what Manny did all his career. at the moment he is fighting good smaller opponents bloating them up to his comfortable weights, eg. Hatton and JMM, far from being a great fighter.

Its funny how in the near 40 fights Mayweather has had he fights one guy he is bigger then(Marquez) while everyone else has been same size or bigger then him and people are saying he doesn't fight people his own size

Floyd is the biggest fraud that ever happen in boxing. A self proclaimed great while ducking Cotto, Mosley, Margarito. IMHO, Cotto is way better than him.

[zhubin]

My god! It's both hilarious and disturbing how blindly some people worship others. Manny is a great fighter...no question. But to this point...the best fighters he has faced have been in the lower weight classes: Marquez, Morales, and Barrera. The best fighter he has faced, regardless of weight, has been Marquez. His record against Marquez: a draw (could have been a loss) and a very narrow win (also could have been a loss). People will jump up and down and say, "Well that was the "old" Manny, the new Manny would have destroyed Marquez." It was the new and improved Manny in their second fight...and as far as how they would fair against each other at this exact point in time...we will never know unless they fight. The buzz about Pac recently has been his climbing up in weight and dominating. But you have to look at the quality of the opponents. I would argue all day that guys like Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto (ESPECIALLY AT THE POINT OF THEIR CAREERS THAT MANNY FOUGHT THEM AT)...are not in the same caliber as the guys Manny beat in the lower weight classes. Roach has been very smart in who has picked for Pac's last three fights. Does Pac deserve credit for taking a risk in going up in weight and winning...absolutely. But to say that beating two shot fighters in Oscar and Hatton and a SOLID fighter in Cotto...is proof that Pac could beat or dominate guys like Leonard, Duran, Whitaker is insane. I am not saying Manny wouldn't have a chance against those all time greats...but those guys where incredible fighters...they weren't Oscar, Hatton, or Cotto. Now....IF Pac can beat a supremely skilled, athletic, PRIME fighter like Floyd....then we can have those discussions seriously.

[BIG H]

Pac at the moment is within top 7, to me way above Duran. Duran has a questionable heart (no mas, no mas) just a pure brawler doesnt have the beauty of in and out, lateral movement, etc. Pac is way better than Duran in style and resume. If he beats Mayweather he is absolutely within top 3. Pac is a combination of Duran and Leonard to me.

Floyd beating Manny doesnt make him at top 20. He should step up and fights better oppositions bigger than him like what Manny did all his career. at the moment he is fighting good smaller opponents bloating them up to his comfortable weights, eg. Hatton and JMM, far from being a great fighter.

thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MAN

Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.

Yes he did actually!! These may not be key characteristics of his method of fighting, but he still had them. But Why are you using those things as reasons for him not being great? Are moving in and out and having great lateral movement the main criteria for great boxers? You need to go and watch some more Duran fights (and that's something I rarely say, coz I hate it when people say it, but you need to) the guys is arguably top 5 all time p4p and that is a view shared by a huge number of boxers, writers etc that know a lot more than you and I. I'll give yo No mas, it is the one shadow over his career - who knows what happend, but he more than made up for it before and after.

As for resume, you need to look at his career at Lightweight, anything after that (and he still had great achievements) was not his prime, he fought nearly twice as many fights at Lightweight than PBF has fought in his whole career to date.

Greatest Lightweight ever 71-1 - criticize his opposition all you want, but tell me who he didn't face during his reign

Was level after 12 rounds with the greatest middleweight of all time fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight.

Beat the unbeaten all time great Sugar Ray Leonard.

[ninjaspy3]

Pac at the moment is within top 7, to me way above Duran. Duran has a questionable heart (no mas, no mas) just a pure brawler doesnt have the beauty of in and out, lateral movement, etc. Pac is way better than Duran in style and resume. If he beats Mayweather he is absolutely within top 3. Pac is a combination of Duran and Leonard to me.

Floyd beating Manny doesnt make him at top 20. He should step up and fights better oppositions bigger than him like what Manny did all his career. at the moment he is fighting good smaller opponents bloating them up to his comfortable weights, eg. Hatton and JMM, far from being a great fighter.

Its funny how in the near 40 fights Mayweather has had he fights one guy he is bigger then(Marquez) while everyone else has been same size or bigger then him and people are saying he doesn't fight people his own size

Floyd is the biggest fraud that ever happen in boxing. A self proclaimed great while ducking Cotto, Mosley, Margarito. IMHO, Cotto is way better than him.

Well my friend, if Floyd is a fraud, then he is a pretty impressive one all things considered. Furthermore, how could he manage to duck all those people you named when he just recenty came out of retirement and hasn't had time to fight all those guys yet? And I dont blame the guy for taking the fight that he did after he just came back from being inactive. And now Manny is simply "the one" right now, and you know everyone wants to see that fight. So it makes no sense to duck Pac and fight one of the guys you mentioned. Perhaps later, then sure.

[THE THIRD MAN]

IMO Mayweather still has a lot more to prove, he is without doubt the best defensive boxer i have ever seen, he has managed his career well, avoiding the likes of Tszyu, Mosley, Cotto, Margarito and a well timed retirement just as Paul Williams becomes a dominant force? He still has good wins over Castillo, Corrales, DLH and Hatton. Pacquiao has done it all, coming from Flyweight!! His last 4 fights define his career with wins over Marquez, DLH, Hatton and Cotto. Many on this forum gave him little chance against DLH (me included) he then destroys Hatton in 2 rounds with a text book left hook, he then goes up against the solid, big hitting Cotto who many believe should still be undefeated after Margogate! How high would i rank him if he beats Floyd? Top 20 ATG for certain, he is pretty close to that now! Floyd needs to beat Manny convincingly to achieve the same recognition. Currently i have Manny ahead of Floyd. I reckon Floyd has more to lose here in a fight with Pacquiao.

[JazMerkin]

IMO Mayweather still has a lot more to prove, he is without doubt the best defensive boxer i have ever seen, he has managed his career well, avoiding the likes of Tszyu, Mosley, Cotto, Margarito and a well timed retirement just as Paul Williams becomes a dominant force? He still has good wins over Castillo, Corrales, DLH and Hatton. Pacquiao has done it all, coming from Flyweight!! His last 4 fights define his career with wins over Marquez, DLH, Hatton and Cotto. Many on this forum gave him little chance against DLH (me included) he then destroys Hatton in 2 rounds with a text book left hook, he then goes up against the solid, big hitting Cotto who many believe should still be undefeated after Margogate! How high would i rank him if he beats Floyd? Top 20 ATG for certain, he is pretty close to that now! Floyd needs to beat Manny convincingly to achieve the same recognition. Currently i have Manny ahead of Floyd. I reckon Floyd has more to lose here in a fight with Pacquiao.

Ok, this is what annoys me when people rearrange history to fit their opinion.

Paul Williams was not becoming a dominant force when Mayweather retired, in fact, at the time he retired Williams was coming off a one-sided decision loss to Carlos Quintana. It is only since his retirement & comeback that he has fought his way to the position he is now.

I also get sick of hearing that he ducked Tszyu & Mosley. There was an arrangement in place that Mayweather & Tszyu would meet after they both made some money fighting easier opponents (let's not forget neither was BIG bucks then). Mayweather beat Gatti easily, but Tszyu didn't fulfill his part of it & got beaten by Hatton a month earlier if I remember rightly.

Mayweather called Mosley out in 1999, when Mosley priced himself out of a fight demanding $10m (fair enough as he had an Oscar fight on the horizon) & in 2006, when he wanted to have a vacation rather than make the fight. I have no problem with him doing that, but let's not then claim he's been avoided.

As for Margarito & Cotto, I can certainly some truth there, but only with them. Margarito he could have fought in 2006 for $8m (although you have to wonder if that was there seeing as Margarito only made $3m fighting Mosley this year - remember this is pre-ODLH Mayweather), but he chose to fight the Lineal Champion Baldomir for the same money.

As for Cotto, I can definitely see the argument that he retired at a time when Cotto was coming up. There was recently a rumour that they tried to make the fight at when both were at 140, but the fact is Cotto was a different beast at 147.

Plus, can we please stop pretending that Hatton was one of PBF's best wins? He was a good win, but Corrales, Castillo, ODLH & Genaro Hernandez all are worth more, not to mention Marquez even if that fight was a tune-up.

I'm not going to take credit away from any of Manny's victories because what he's done is amazing, but don't rewrite history (his last 4 fights have been Cotto, Hatton, ODLH & David Diaz btw) just to suit an argument. Why can't people just accept that we're lucky to have 2 of the best in the history of this profession almost certain to fight one another & sit back & enjoy it rather than acting like they need to denigrate one or the other.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Ok, this is what annoys me when people rearrange history to fit their opinion.

Paul Williams was not becoming a dominant force when Mayweather retired

Actually, Floyd Retired after the Hatton fight (December 2007).
But this was after Williams had just beaten Margarito (June 2007).

Williams didn't fight Quintana until February 2008

So personally, i think we should add Williams back to ''the list of the ducked''

[Rantcatrat]

Jaz,

First, is Floyd ranked higher on your ATG list than Manny at this point in time? And would a win over Floyd for Manny mean more to you than a win for Floyd over Manny in terms of legacy and ATG status?

Second, regardless of whether Floyd "What Have You Done For Me Lately?" Mayweather ducked Margarito, Mosley, Cotto, or Williams, or just chose not to fight them for whatever reason, we can both agree that he hasn't fought them and as such, at welterweight, he really hasn't done much. When he retires, because it is too soon to pass judgment, if he still hasn't fought any of those names, it should be taken into account when considering his ATG status.

[UKPH]

The problem with Floyd when he returns he just clearly pick his opponent like what he did picking smaller Marquez.

I'm not against Floyd but the timing is, tho I really give a small margin beating Pacquiao by points but again for me beating midget Pacquiao doesnt give him a credit like beating a real welters like Cotto, Mosley or Margarito even we can scratch out Paul Williams.

I guess his comeback is really to fight Pacquiao moneywise thus what he said for money than fight those Welters i've mentioned above.

[paddy448]

Pac at the moment is within top 7, to me way above Duran. Duran has a questionable heart (no mas, no mas) just a pure brawler doesnt have the beauty of in and out, lateral movement, etc. Pac is way better than Duran in style and resume. If he beats Mayweather he is absolutely within top 3. Pac is a combination of Duran and Leonard to me.

Floyd beating Manny doesnt make him at top 20. He should step up and fights better oppositions bigger than him like what Manny did all his career. at the moment he is fighting good smaller opponents bloating them up to his comfortable weights, eg. Hatton and JMM, far from being a great fighter.

thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MAN

Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.

seriously if u no anything about boxing u will understand what a stupid post that was, durans record is full of the best fighters in each division he fought in from lightweight up too middleweight, hes the only fighter in history to fight thru 5 decades, and retired with 119 fights with 103 wins fighting fighters along the way like, esteban de jesus,kirkland laing, marvin hagler, wilfredo benitez, ken buchanen, tommy hearns, sugar ray leonard,iran barkley, hector camacho,pipino cuevas, davie moore, william joppy, and many other top tier fighters. i dont want too get in too a stupid name calling rant with u, but u obviously dont no shit because of the shit u come out with, u really need to watch durans fights and then decide who u think has the better resume., pac can never over come duran p4p. not ever.

[ICB]

thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MAN

Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.

Yes he did actually!! These may not be key characteristics of his method of fighting, but he still had them. But Why are you using those things as reasons for him not being great? Are moving in and out and having great lateral movement the main criteria for great boxers? You need to go and watch some more Duran fights (and that's something I rarely say, coz I hate it when people say it, but you need to) the guys is arguably top 5 all time p4p and that is a view shared by a huge number of boxers, writers etc that know a lot more than you and I. I'll give yo No mas, it is the one shadow over his career - who knows what happend, but he more than made up for it before and after.

As for resume, you need to look at his career at Lightweight, anything after that (and he still had great achievements) was not his prime, he fought nearly twice as many fights at Lightweight than PBF has fought in his whole career to date.

Greatest Lightweight ever 71-1 - criticize his opposition all you want, but tell me who he didn't face during his reign

Was level after 12 rounds with the greatest middleweight of all time fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight.

Beat the unbeaten all time great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I remember i used to question Roberto Duran at one point, but boy was i wrong when i watched more of his fights. He was an excellent boxer/puncher, and probably had one of the best defense's for an aggressive fighter. He really had a slippery defense.

He also has some underrated wins at Lightweight and below Lightweight amazingly, he beat a very good boxer in Vilomar Fernandez who gave a prime Alexis Arguello, a boxing lesson pretty much. He also beat Ernesto Marcel at Featherweight i believe who also beat Alexis Arguello aswell.

And despite all that i think the fact that he lost at the higher weightclasses, and kept coming back when you thought he was a finished fighter actually adds to his greatness IMO.

And remember he started at 119 not far from Manny Pacquiao's orignal weightclass, and he managed to win a title at Middleweight and be competitive at the higher weightclasses, truly incredible IMO.

[Master]

Manny Pac has not yet finished his career, I did not think he would beat ODH, Hatton and Cotto. Wait and see, but he has not over taken Duran. Paddy said it all.

[BIG H]

Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.

Yes he did actually!! These may not be key characteristics of his method of fighting, but he still had them. But Why are you using those things as reasons for him not being great? Are moving in and out and having great lateral movement the main criteria for great boxers? You need to go and watch some more Duran fights (and that's something I rarely say, coz I hate it when people say it, but you need to) the guys is arguably top 5 all time p4p and that is a view shared by a huge number of boxers, writers etc that know a lot more than you and I. I'll give yo No mas, it is the one shadow over his career - who knows what happend, but he more than made up for it before and after.

As for resume, you need to look at his career at Lightweight, anything after that (and he still had great achievements) was not his prime, he fought nearly twice as many fights at Lightweight than PBF has fought in his whole career to date.

Greatest Lightweight ever 71-1 - criticize his opposition all you want, but tell me who he didn't face during his reign

Was level after 12 rounds with the greatest middleweight of all time fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight.

Beat the unbeaten all time great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I remember i used to question Roberto Duran at one point, but boy was i wrong when i watched more of his fights. He was an excellent boxer/puncher, and probably had one of the best defense's for an aggressive fighter. He really had a slippery defense.

He also has some underrated wins at Lightweight and below Lightweight amazingly, he beat a very good boxer in Vilomar Fernandez who gave a prime Alexis Arguello, a boxing lesson pretty much. He also beat Ernesto Marcel at Featherweight i believe who also beat Alexis Arguello aswell.

And despite all that i think the fact that he lost at the higher weightclasses, and kept coming back when you thought he was a finished fighter actually adds to his greatness IMO.

And remember he started at 119 not far from Manny Pacquiao's orignal weightclass, and he managed to win a title at Middleweight and be competitive at the higher weightclasses, truly incredible IMO.

Fair play for actually going away and watching more of his fights. I remember debating his greatness with you a few years back, I thought you would change your mind when you saw more of him.