Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes?

[VictorCharlie]

War is a nasty thing, horrible things happen to all parties involved but the end state is there is no substitute for victory or at least a facsimile of it. World leaders have started wars for less than ethical or even reasonable reasons through out history and will continue to do so. While I agree that the Iraq invasion was on completely false pretenses and that the planning for post invasion Iraq was woefully negligent I don't think any world leader is a "war criminal" for ordering military strikes/invasions even if it is for self serving reasons. Ordering military operations and unintended collateral damage simply don't equate to systematic genocide and intentional targeting of civilian populations in my opinion.

The idea of legality of an invasion seem completely based on what side of the berm you are on. The concept of a legal or illegal invasion just seem very paradoxical to me. I don't really take the UN seriously as any type of arbitrator of what is legal or illegal in a global sense. To me the entire orginization is a bit of a joke.

In regards to the number of civilian casualties suffered in Iraq I find any number that varies from 100k to 1 million to be in question. How many were actual combatants or simply killed by insurgents/terrorists? The truth is it is now doctrine for an adversary to use civilian populations as a shield for combat operations or mask for support operations when involved in an asymmetric war. Insurgencies get to pick the time, place and setting for attacks, so civilians continually find themselves in the middle of a gunfight. As long as militaries find themselves engaged in counterinsurgencies the enemy will always put civlians between themselves and the soldier. I never looked down my rifle at a combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan that was in anything that closely resembled anything other than the normal civilian garb. If you want to blame someone for civilian losses then blame the coward that chooses their homes to hide and fight from.

Lastly while I don't necessarily agree with the way the war in Afghanistan has been carried out I don't see how the invasion of it can be considered in anyway not justified considering it was the originating point for 9/11 and that the Taliban refused to give up Osama when asked.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

War is a nasty thing, horrible things happen to all parties involved but the end state is there is no substitute for victory or at least a facsimile of it. World leaders have started wars for less than ethical or even reasonable reasons through out history and will continue to do so. While I agree that the Iraq invasion was on completely false pretenses and that the planning for post invasion Iraq was woefully negligent I don't think any world leader is a "war criminal" for ordering military strikes/invasions even if it is for self serving reasons. Ordering military operations and unintended collateral damage simply don't equate to systematic genocide and intentional targeting of civilian populations in my opinion.

The idea of legality of an invasion seem completely based on what side of the berm you are on. The concept of a legal or illegal invasion just seem very paradoxical to me. I don't really take the UN seriously as any type of arbitrator of what is legal or illegal in a global sense. To me the entire orginization is a bit of a joke.

In regards to the number of civilian casualties suffered in Iraq I find any number that varies from 100k to 1 million to be in question. How many were actual combatants or simply killed by insurgents/terrorists? The truth is it is now doctrine for an adversary to use civilian populations as a shield for combat operations or mask for support operations when involved in an asymmetric war. Insurgencies get to pick the time, place and setting for attacks, so civilians continually find themselves in the middle of a gunfight. As long as militaries find themselves engaged in counterinsurgencies the enemy will always put civlians between themselves and the soldier. I never looked down my rifle at a combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan that was in anything that closely resembled anything other than the normal civilian garb. If you want to blame someone for civilian losses then blame the coward that chooses their homes to hide and fight from.

Lastly while I don't necessarily agree with the way the war in Afghanistan has been carried out I don't see how the invasion of it can be considered in anyway not justified considering it was the originating point for 9/11 and that the Taliban refused to give up Osama when asked.

people weren't really expecting them to line up on a battlefield and duke it out were they?

yes why bother with the UN unless it agrees with you and ignore it when it doesnt and while we're about it lets forget that pesky geneva convention...oh wait already did that.

[VictorCharlie]

Well Missy actually Yes Bush's administration didn't anticipate an insurgency being an issue at all after the conventional forces were eliminated. But whats your point? Are you absolving them of the blame because it is a good tactic?
U.S. Troops: Make every attempt to not kill civilians as well as do massive humanitarian operations;
Insurgent/Terrorist: Intentionally execute and cause collateral damage as well as destroy infrustructure and the economy;
who is the bad guy again?

When have I "bothered with the UN when it agreed with me"? Actually what I think I said was that it was a joke. If you think it is a worth while org then have at it but to me it is a complete sham and not worth a damn. And yeah fuck the Geneva convention. Rules in war is just as silly as legal or illegal invasion especially when one side is clearly not going to follow them. If you have never been in combat and been moments or inches away from your own demise much less watched your loved ones meet their maker then please just keep your opinions on how war is fought to yourself because its not a movie or a videogame and you have no idea what you are talking about. There is no substitute for victory because anything thing less means your fucking dead.

[Gandalf]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

[VictorCharlie]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

Miles have you read any of my posts or are you just regurgitating your typical whiny I hate America rhertoric?
1. I have never posted anything supporting the invasion of Iraq and agree 100% it was not necessary and done under false pretenses.
2. I am adamandtly against any foreign policy regarding nation building and regime changes and my posts will support this.
3. If you honestly believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted then you are ignorant, naive and a pussy.
4. Have you ever taken a life Miles, had someone attempt to take your life, washed your soldier's blood out of a guntruck, picked up local national body parts after an explosion, attempted to ID bodies in mass graves, shoot a teenage downsyndrom girl b/c AQI strapped 25 pound of C4 to her and sent her on a suicide mission? I am pretty damn sure the answer to all of these are no, and I wish I could say the same. But until you have these experiences you don't know shit about war or whatever bullshit laws you think should govern it.
5. My opinions aren't right wing or left they come from being a professional soldier who executes his nations foreign policy b/c I raised my right hand swore to it as my duty. I have no say so in where I operate but its always nice to know that there are plenty of assholes who are completely disconnected from the fight that can sit back and sharpshoot me on the methods I use to bring myself and my soldiers back home.

[Gandalf]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

Miles have you read any of my posts or are you just regurgitating your typical whiny I hate America rhertoric?
1. I have never posted anything supporting the invasion of Iraq and agree 100% it was not necessary and done under false pretenses.
2. I am adamandtly against any foreign policy regarding nation building and regime changes and my posts will support this.
3. If you honestly believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted then you are ignorant, naive and a pussy.
4. Have you ever taken a life Miles, had someone attempt to take your life, washed your soldier's blood out of a guntruck, picked up local national body parts after an explosion, attempted to ID bodies in mass graves, shoot a teenage downsyndrom girl b/c AQI strapped 25 pound of C4 to her and sent her on a suicide mission? I am pretty damn sure the answer to all of these are no, and I wish I could say the same. But until you have these experiences you don't know shit about war or whatever bullshit laws you think should govern it.
5. My opinions aren't right wing or left they come from being a professional soldier who executes his nations foreign policy b/c I raised my right hand swore to it as my duty. I have no say so in where I operate but its always nice to know that there are plenty of assholes who are completely disconnected from the fight that can sit back and sharpshoot me on the methods I use to bring myself and my soldiers back home.

My posts are not just anti American. In fact I like America a lot, but I loath and despise what the elite have done to America. I get no satisfaction out of seeing a country stripped to the bone by big corporations and war. It's frustrating more than anything else. The UK has gone much the same way too, though on less of the scale.

1. We can agree wholly on this point. I have always been against the war too.

2. Again, I agree. On these points I should have pointed my finger more specifically at Lyle rather than just quote your post in its entirety.

3. Afghanistan is more tricky. After all it did have international support. But having said that, I think the war has lost any semblance of what the original objectives were supposedly about. This was all about terrorists and 9/11 and that was over 8 years ago. This war hasn't been about catching the 'terrorists' for a very long time now. The taliban were screwed up, but they weren't the terrorists and if they wanted evidence that Bin Laden was behind 9/11 then the US agencies had an obligation to provide the Taliban with evidence. You don't say 'if you don't hand 'em over, then we will invade'. It was poorly conceived and that's why we are still there. It's not being a pussy to plan things properly and use diplomacy first. If that doesn't work then you can always use force, I'm sure the Taliban didn't want to be ousted from power.

4. No, I have never taken a life. And I don't plan on doing so either. I'm sure it is a horrible job with neither side playing completely by the rules. I haven't experienced war first hand, but that doesn't discount my objections to war. I don't want any US soldier or Afghan citizens killed. My objection to the war is about wanting peace and for both sides to just call it quits and go home to their families. Nothing can be won in a war like this. It is too far removed from attempt to find the 9/11 attackers and is now about making the corrupt government more secure. The Afghans must begin to take responsibility for themselves. Of course, we should aid them...but what we are doing is too much and will only result in a lot more of our lives lost. I don't want that.

5. Left/right is a divide that doesn't really exist in the mainstream political arena anymore and hasn't for several decades. They are both pretty right wing. I understand that you are a soldier and that you are just following orders. I would find that very tough to do considering that the elite have no morality. It becomes a blurred line where the good guys are no longer so good and the bad have a justification for defending themselves. It takes guts to stick that out, I know I couldn't do it.

My issue is not with the American people nor with the military. It is all down to the political elite and the hypocrisy and deceit they are dishing out all in collusion with the mainstream media to spoonfeed a public who are getting screwed left, right and centre. No decent person wants to see that, but unfortunately that's what we are seeing right now.

[VictorCharlie]

can't rep you at the moment...but good post and cheers

[Nameless]

Look it's not very complicated: According to Geneva convention and the Nurember treaties, Bush and Blair could be trial for war crime and they would most definitely lose. If it has been good against some of our old ennemies, why isn't it good for treaties we did sign ourself ? No matter how historically this is 2 eras, everybody did sign under the same rules and there should be no shallow exceptions to it.
I understand your point Vanchild and I agree with something: You cannot trial a soldier for the job he carries, just like the soldiers of the Wermarcht weren't trialed neither compared to the SS (for example). However, the political leaders which motivation is solely to steal other's ressources and to follow a personal agenda (idealism of the neo-cons in that case), that is unacceptable, especially when they order to throw bombs in the middle of the city. Human shields? in some case it's true. But definitely not all the time. The 500 000 children who died because of the stupid "Embargo didn't use human shields. Neither the prisoners at Abu Ghraib where torture has been made legal by Rumsfeld's signature with the blessing of the big boss neither. Targeting Center of Baghdad when it was not necessary at some point will also kill countless civilians, especially when a few of these missiles didn't land where they were supposed and destroyed some part of Baghdad's Market.
THey should be trialed, our countries did sign for it an it has nothing to do with their nationality, would it be a Canadian or a Martian, I would call for the same.

[Kirkland Laing]

fuck the Geneva convention.

That's a very anti-American position to take.

[VictorCharlie]

Maybe so but I just don't understand the attempt to put rules and regulations on armed conflict in some way to humanize it. Personally I think killing one another is a very HUMAN trait and has been throughout history. It seems people don't like seeing how depraved we can be and feel better about it with some semblance of honor in war. Like I said there is no substitute for victory. Why play by a set of rules when your enemy doesn't? Why cling to some moral high ground when it doesn't necessarily aid winning? I don't know why people are ever suprised to look at an armed conflict and find horrible acts. It in and of itself is a horrible act.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Maybe so but I just don't understand the attempt to put rules and regulations on armed conflict in some way to humanize it. Personally I think killing one another is a very HUMAN trait and has been throughout history. It seems people don't like seeing how depraved we can be and feel better about it with some semblance of honor in war. Like I said there is no substitute for victory. Why play by a set of rules when your enemy doesn't? Why cling to some moral high ground when it doesn't necessarily aid winning? I don't know why people are ever suprised to look at an armed conflict and find horrible acts. It in and of itself is a horrible act.

Yes, bring back rape and flame throwers. Top man.

[El Kabong]

Kirkland Bush didn't singlehandedly cause the economic meltdown, you give him far too much credit and people like Bill Clinton and YOUR BOY Jimmy Carter far too little credit...I don't give any ONE person all the credit they all helped out.

"Afghanistan is the war of neccessity" - Barack Obama

Bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan and he earned them a war.

Whether or not they blundered in their strategy is up for debate but it is not up for debate that Afghanistan earned every single bomb that got dropped on that lousy shithole of a country.

Yes, bring back rape and flame throwers. Top man.

Well telling enemy combatants to identify themselves as enemy combatants to help prevent civilian casualties has certainly worked out well

[VictorCharlie]

Maybe so but I just don't understand the attempt to put rules and regulations on armed conflict in some way to humanize it. Personally I think killing one another is a very HUMAN trait and has been throughout history. It seems people don't like seeing how depraved we can be and feel better about it with some semblance of honor in war. Like I said there is no substitute for victory. Why play by a set of rules when your enemy doesn't? Why cling to some moral high ground when it doesn't necessarily aid winning? I don't know why people are ever suprised to look at an armed conflict and find horrible acts. It in and of itself is a horrible act.

Yes, bring back rape and flame throwers. Top man.

Pretty easy to say from the sideline. Lets put your life on the line and the lives of your closest friends and then see how you feel about it. The adversaries in Iraq and Afghanistan violate Geneva EVERY day. Point you judgemental finger else where. And rape? really? Please point out my post advocating rape...oh yeah not going to find one but nice attempt at a smear campaign...but fuck yeah I could have put a flamethrower to good use a couple of times.

[Kirkland Laing]

Maybe so but I just don't understand the attempt to put rules and regulations on armed conflict in some way to humanize it. Personally I think killing one another is a very HUMAN trait and has been throughout history. It seems people don't like seeing how depraved we can be and feel better about it with some semblance of honor in war. Like I said there is no substitute for victory. Why play by a set of rules when your enemy doesn't? Why cling to some moral high ground when it doesn't necessarily aid winning? I don't know why people are ever suprised to look at an armed conflict and find horrible acts. It in and of itself is a horrible act.

You're not fighting a war, you're fighting a bunch of insuregents and your own generals say that military force can't beat insurgencies. It's all about hearts and minds, isn't it, not killing hundreds of thousands of people to try and "win" something that's unwinnable with violence.

[El Kabong]

VanChilds, THANK YOU...not only for your service but for your rational and reasoning in arguments about topics you are actually personally involved in.