Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes?

[Gandalf]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

[VictorCharlie]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

Miles have you read any of my posts or are you just regurgitating your typical whiny I hate America rhertoric?
1. I have never posted anything supporting the invasion of Iraq and agree 100% it was not necessary and done under false pretenses.
2. I am adamandtly against any foreign policy regarding nation building and regime changes and my posts will support this.
3. If you honestly believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted then you are ignorant, naive and a pussy.
4. Have you ever taken a life Miles, had someone attempt to take your life, washed your soldier's blood out of a guntruck, picked up local national body parts after an explosion, attempted to ID bodies in mass graves, shoot a teenage downsyndrom girl b/c AQI strapped 25 pound of C4 to her and sent her on a suicide mission? I am pretty damn sure the answer to all of these are no, and I wish I could say the same. But until you have these experiences you don't know shit about war or whatever bullshit laws you think should govern it.
5. My opinions aren't right wing or left they come from being a professional soldier who executes his nations foreign policy b/c I raised my right hand swore to it as my duty. I have no say so in where I operate but its always nice to know that there are plenty of assholes who are completely disconnected from the fight that can sit back and sharpshoot me on the methods I use to bring myself and my soldiers back home.

[Gandalf]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

Miles have you read any of my posts or are you just regurgitating your typical whiny I hate America rhertoric?
1. I have never posted anything supporting the invasion of Iraq and agree 100% it was not necessary and done under false pretenses.
2. I am adamandtly against any foreign policy regarding nation building and regime changes and my posts will support this.
3. If you honestly believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted then you are ignorant, naive and a pussy.
4. Have you ever taken a life Miles, had someone attempt to take your life, washed your soldier's blood out of a guntruck, picked up local national body parts after an explosion, attempted to ID bodies in mass graves, shoot a teenage downsyndrom girl b/c AQI strapped 25 pound of C4 to her and sent her on a suicide mission? I am pretty damn sure the answer to all of these are no, and I wish I could say the same. But until you have these experiences you don't know shit about war or whatever bullshit laws you think should govern it.
5. My opinions aren't right wing or left they come from being a professional soldier who executes his nations foreign policy b/c I raised my right hand swore to it as my duty. I have no say so in where I operate but its always nice to know that there are plenty of assholes who are completely disconnected from the fight that can sit back and sharpshoot me on the methods I use to bring myself and my soldiers back home.

My posts are not just anti American. In fact I like America a lot, but I loath and despise what the elite have done to America. I get no satisfaction out of seeing a country stripped to the bone by big corporations and war. It's frustrating more than anything else. The UK has gone much the same way too, though on less of the scale.

1. We can agree wholly on this point. I have always been against the war too.

2. Again, I agree. On these points I should have pointed my finger more specifically at Lyle rather than just quote your post in its entirety.

3. Afghanistan is more tricky. After all it did have international support. But having said that, I think the war has lost any semblance of what the original objectives were supposedly about. This was all about terrorists and 9/11 and that was over 8 years ago. This war hasn't been about catching the 'terrorists' for a very long time now. The taliban were screwed up, but they weren't the terrorists and if they wanted evidence that Bin Laden was behind 9/11 then the US agencies had an obligation to provide the Taliban with evidence. You don't say 'if you don't hand 'em over, then we will invade'. It was poorly conceived and that's why we are still there. It's not being a pussy to plan things properly and use diplomacy first. If that doesn't work then you can always use force, I'm sure the Taliban didn't want to be ousted from power.

4. No, I have never taken a life. And I don't plan on doing so either. I'm sure it is a horrible job with neither side playing completely by the rules. I haven't experienced war first hand, but that doesn't discount my objections to war. I don't want any US soldier or Afghan citizens killed. My objection to the war is about wanting peace and for both sides to just call it quits and go home to their families. Nothing can be won in a war like this. It is too far removed from attempt to find the 9/11 attackers and is now about making the corrupt government more secure. The Afghans must begin to take responsibility for themselves. Of course, we should aid them...but what we are doing is too much and will only result in a lot more of our lives lost. I don't want that.

5. Left/right is a divide that doesn't really exist in the mainstream political arena anymore and hasn't for several decades. They are both pretty right wing. I understand that you are a soldier and that you are just following orders. I would find that very tough to do considering that the elite have no morality. It becomes a blurred line where the good guys are no longer so good and the bad have a justification for defending themselves. It takes guts to stick that out, I know I couldn't do it.

My issue is not with the American people nor with the military. It is all down to the political elite and the hypocrisy and deceit they are dishing out all in collusion with the mainstream media to spoonfeed a public who are getting screwed left, right and centre. No decent person wants to see that, but unfortunately that's what we are seeing right now.

[VictorCharlie]

can't rep you at the moment...but good post and cheers

[CFH]

Over the last few weeks I have found myself on the same side as first Bilbo and now Lyle in two separate arguments. Suicide cannot be long now .

[Nameless]

Look it's not very complicated: According to Geneva convention and the Nurember treaties, Bush and Blair could be trial for war crime and they would most definitely lose. If it has been good against some of our old ennemies, why isn't it good for treaties we did sign ourself ? No matter how historically this is 2 eras, everybody did sign under the same rules and there should be no shallow exceptions to it.
I understand your point Vanchild and I agree with something: You cannot trial a soldier for the job he carries, just like the soldiers of the Wermarcht weren't trialed neither compared to the SS (for example). However, the political leaders which motivation is solely to steal other's ressources and to follow a personal agenda (idealism of the neo-cons in that case), that is unacceptable, especially when they order to throw bombs in the middle of the city. Human shields? in some case it's true. But definitely not all the time. The 500 000 children who died because of the stupid "Embargo didn't use human shields. Neither the prisoners at Abu Ghraib where torture has been made legal by Rumsfeld's signature with the blessing of the big boss neither. Targeting Center of Baghdad when it was not necessary at some point will also kill countless civilians, especially when a few of these missiles didn't land where they were supposed and destroyed some part of Baghdad's Market.
THey should be trialed, our countries did sign for it an it has nothing to do with their nationality, would it be a Canadian or a Martian, I would call for the same.