Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes?

[HattonTheHammer]

2 proud upstanding men who made a concencous decision that would mean losing life for freedom in the middle east.

George W Bush represents everything great about the united states of america. There is a man who fought for his country like the true patriot he is and the day the `dubb had to leave office was a sad day for the world as a whole.

If everyone on this planet had half the integrity and courage of bush this world would be a far better place!!

You're making irony here, right?

Oh yes thats right, the flag burning left wing college know it all say he`s a bad person = blood for oil and all that crap to hell with that

Like a proud republican Bush mantained the core values of surburban america and kept family views at heart

Just like clinton did, obama will no doubt lay down on all fours to left wing culture and it`ll take another 2 terms of republican rule to clean up democratic mess!!

[Howlin Mad Missy]

2 proud upstanding men who made a concencous decision that would mean losing life for freedom in the middle east.

George W Bush represents everything great about the united states of america. There is a man who fought for his country like the true patriot he is and the day the `dubb had to leave office was a sad day for the world as a whole.

If everyone on this planet had half the integrity and courage of bush this world would be a far better place!!

You're making irony here, right?

Oh yes thats right, the flag burning left wing college know it all say he`s a bad person = blood for oil and all that crap to hell with that

Like a proud republican Bush mantained the core values of surburban america and kept family views at heart

Just like clinton did, obama will no doubt lay down on all fours to left wing culture and it`ll take another 2 terms of republican rule to clean up democratic mess!!

Comedy genius.

[Nameless]

2 proud upstanding men who made a concencous decision that would mean losing life for freedom in the middle east.

George W Bush represents everything great about the united states of america. There is a man who fought for his country like the true patriot he is and the day the `dubb had to leave office was a sad day for the world as a whole.

If everyone on this planet had half the integrity and courage of bush this world would be a far better place!!

You're making irony here, right?

Oh yes thats right, the flag burning left wing college know it all say he`s a bad person = blood for oil and all that crap to hell with that

Like a proud republican Bush mantained the core values of surburban america and kept family views at heart

Just like clinton did, obama will no doubt lay down on all fours to left wing culture and it`ll take another 2 terms of republican rule to clean up democratic mess!!

I've rarely read so much ignorance about the american politics Hatton, may I suggest you some reading to correct that? Oh, and not written by ultra left wing nuggers, just plain facts.

[Kirkland Laing]

Not according to international law you didn't. So bearing that in mind, should B and B face trial for war crimes?

We give the world these little tokens like the UN and all you shmoes want to do is try and take us down with them.

1. We supported him figuring he would be a benelovent dictator, but I just guess that's the way the cookie crumbles...every single time

2. Yeah, I do get confused all the time about that , I forgot that England, France, and Spain were the last powers to be able to control other countries.

3. I am just using the FACT that based on precedent Bush and Blair are in the clear.

Based on international law they're not. And taking the law into consideration, do you think they should stand trial.

[Kirkland Laing]

HTH, define "clean up" and "mess".

[El Kabong]

So you're against politicians you believe lied to start an "illegal" war yet you support the scientists who gave us "Man Made Global Warming" and have been CAUGHT RED HANDED lying? Thanks, I think that about flushes what's left of your credibility down the crapper

HTH, define "clean up" and "mess".

I think the definition of MESS will be Afghanistan in 19 months....nah it's probably 10% unemployment but I guess that's still all W's fault too, maybe you should invent a law that broke and try him for that too!

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

[VictorCharlie]

War is a nasty thing, horrible things happen to all parties involved but the end state is there is no substitute for victory or at least a facsimile of it. World leaders have started wars for less than ethical or even reasonable reasons through out history and will continue to do so. While I agree that the Iraq invasion was on completely false pretenses and that the planning for post invasion Iraq was woefully negligent I don't think any world leader is a "war criminal" for ordering military strikes/invasions even if it is for self serving reasons. Ordering military operations and unintended collateral damage simply don't equate to systematic genocide and intentional targeting of civilian populations in my opinion.

The idea of legality of an invasion seem completely based on what side of the berm you are on. The concept of a legal or illegal invasion just seem very paradoxical to me. I don't really take the UN seriously as any type of arbitrator of what is legal or illegal in a global sense. To me the entire orginization is a bit of a joke.

In regards to the number of civilian casualties suffered in Iraq I find any number that varies from 100k to 1 million to be in question. How many were actual combatants or simply killed by insurgents/terrorists? The truth is it is now doctrine for an adversary to use civilian populations as a shield for combat operations or mask for support operations when involved in an asymmetric war. Insurgencies get to pick the time, place and setting for attacks, so civilians continually find themselves in the middle of a gunfight. As long as militaries find themselves engaged in counterinsurgencies the enemy will always put civlians between themselves and the soldier. I never looked down my rifle at a combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan that was in anything that closely resembled anything other than the normal civilian garb. If you want to blame someone for civilian losses then blame the coward that chooses their homes to hide and fight from.

Lastly while I don't necessarily agree with the way the war in Afghanistan has been carried out I don't see how the invasion of it can be considered in anyway not justified considering it was the originating point for 9/11 and that the Taliban refused to give up Osama when asked.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

War is a nasty thing, horrible things happen to all parties involved but the end state is there is no substitute for victory or at least a facsimile of it. World leaders have started wars for less than ethical or even reasonable reasons through out history and will continue to do so. While I agree that the Iraq invasion was on completely false pretenses and that the planning for post invasion Iraq was woefully negligent I don't think any world leader is a "war criminal" for ordering military strikes/invasions even if it is for self serving reasons. Ordering military operations and unintended collateral damage simply don't equate to systematic genocide and intentional targeting of civilian populations in my opinion.

The idea of legality of an invasion seem completely based on what side of the berm you are on. The concept of a legal or illegal invasion just seem very paradoxical to me. I don't really take the UN seriously as any type of arbitrator of what is legal or illegal in a global sense. To me the entire orginization is a bit of a joke.

In regards to the number of civilian casualties suffered in Iraq I find any number that varies from 100k to 1 million to be in question. How many were actual combatants or simply killed by insurgents/terrorists? The truth is it is now doctrine for an adversary to use civilian populations as a shield for combat operations or mask for support operations when involved in an asymmetric war. Insurgencies get to pick the time, place and setting for attacks, so civilians continually find themselves in the middle of a gunfight. As long as militaries find themselves engaged in counterinsurgencies the enemy will always put civlians between themselves and the soldier. I never looked down my rifle at a combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan that was in anything that closely resembled anything other than the normal civilian garb. If you want to blame someone for civilian losses then blame the coward that chooses their homes to hide and fight from.

Lastly while I don't necessarily agree with the way the war in Afghanistan has been carried out I don't see how the invasion of it can be considered in anyway not justified considering it was the originating point for 9/11 and that the Taliban refused to give up Osama when asked.

people weren't really expecting them to line up on a battlefield and duke it out were they?

yes why bother with the UN unless it agrees with you and ignore it when it doesnt and while we're about it lets forget that pesky geneva convention...oh wait already did that.

[VictorCharlie]

Well Missy actually Yes Bush's administration didn't anticipate an insurgency being an issue at all after the conventional forces were eliminated. But whats your point? Are you absolving them of the blame because it is a good tactic?
U.S. Troops: Make every attempt to not kill civilians as well as do massive humanitarian operations;
Insurgent/Terrorist: Intentionally execute and cause collateral damage as well as destroy infrustructure and the economy;
who is the bad guy again?

When have I "bothered with the UN when it agreed with me"? Actually what I think I said was that it was a joke. If you think it is a worth while org then have at it but to me it is a complete sham and not worth a damn. And yeah fuck the Geneva convention. Rules in war is just as silly as legal or illegal invasion especially when one side is clearly not going to follow them. If you have never been in combat and been moments or inches away from your own demise much less watched your loved ones meet their maker then please just keep your opinions on how war is fought to yourself because its not a movie or a videogame and you have no idea what you are talking about. There is no substitute for victory because anything thing less means your fucking dead.

[Gandalf]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

[BoxingGorilla]

No Way; No How.

[VictorCharlie]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

Miles have you read any of my posts or are you just regurgitating your typical whiny I hate America rhertoric?
1. I have never posted anything supporting the invasion of Iraq and agree 100% it was not necessary and done under false pretenses.
2. I am adamandtly against any foreign policy regarding nation building and regime changes and my posts will support this.
3. If you honestly believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted then you are ignorant, naive and a pussy.
4. Have you ever taken a life Miles, had someone attempt to take your life, washed your soldier's blood out of a guntruck, picked up local national body parts after an explosion, attempted to ID bodies in mass graves, shoot a teenage downsyndrom girl b/c AQI strapped 25 pound of C4 to her and sent her on a suicide mission? I am pretty damn sure the answer to all of these are no, and I wish I could say the same. But until you have these experiences you don't know shit about war or whatever bullshit laws you think should govern it.
5. My opinions aren't right wing or left they come from being a professional soldier who executes his nations foreign policy b/c I raised my right hand swore to it as my duty. I have no say so in where I operate but its always nice to know that there are plenty of assholes who are completely disconnected from the fight that can sit back and sharpshoot me on the methods I use to bring myself and my soldiers back home.

[El Kabong]

VanChilds, THANK YOU...not only for your service but for your rational and reasoning in arguments about topics you are actually personally involved in.

[Gandalf]

In these wars we are seeing a process of nation building in the strategic interests of the Americans rather than any obvious process of catching terrorists. The bad guys are those that are in countries without any due respect of national borders. It isn't our business to be in these countries telling these people how to live.

Your own attitudes are typical of the right wing from your country and a reason why there can never be any peace. It's always a case of us against them. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys! Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that. You have no respect for any kind of International law and you have no respect for the Geneva conventions. Your elite have always supported Israel in the most hideous way too. No sense of morality or decency whatsoever. Democrat or Republican, it's just a different side of the mask.

You invade countries without just cause nor plan and annihilate hundreds of thousands, disregard international opinion and claim that no law is bigger than the US government. Just like I said to Lyle, it's going to jump up and bite America in the arse. You are creating resentment beyond belief and unlike you, these people won't mind blowing themselves up to get their point home on American soil. It isn't a computer game, but following orders like a lemming is. These wars have no purpose, if you can't see that then you are a lost cause.

Miles have you read any of my posts or are you just regurgitating your typical whiny I hate America rhertoric?
1. I have never posted anything supporting the invasion of Iraq and agree 100% it was not necessary and done under false pretenses.
2. I am adamandtly against any foreign policy regarding nation building and regime changes and my posts will support this.
3. If you honestly believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted then you are ignorant, naive and a pussy.
4. Have you ever taken a life Miles, had someone attempt to take your life, washed your soldier's blood out of a guntruck, picked up local national body parts after an explosion, attempted to ID bodies in mass graves, shoot a teenage downsyndrom girl b/c AQI strapped 25 pound of C4 to her and sent her on a suicide mission? I am pretty damn sure the answer to all of these are no, and I wish I could say the same. But until you have these experiences you don't know shit about war or whatever bullshit laws you think should govern it.
5. My opinions aren't right wing or left they come from being a professional soldier who executes his nations foreign policy b/c I raised my right hand swore to it as my duty. I have no say so in where I operate but its always nice to know that there are plenty of assholes who are completely disconnected from the fight that can sit back and sharpshoot me on the methods I use to bring myself and my soldiers back home.

My posts are not just anti American. In fact I like America a lot, but I loath and despise what the elite have done to America. I get no satisfaction out of seeing a country stripped to the bone by big corporations and war. It's frustrating more than anything else. The UK has gone much the same way too, though on less of the scale.

1. We can agree wholly on this point. I have always been against the war too.

2. Again, I agree. On these points I should have pointed my finger more specifically at Lyle rather than just quote your post in its entirety.

3. Afghanistan is more tricky. After all it did have international support. But having said that, I think the war has lost any semblance of what the original objectives were supposedly about. This was all about terrorists and 9/11 and that was over 8 years ago. This war hasn't been about catching the 'terrorists' for a very long time now. The taliban were screwed up, but they weren't the terrorists and if they wanted evidence that Bin Laden was behind 9/11 then the US agencies had an obligation to provide the Taliban with evidence. You don't say 'if you don't hand 'em over, then we will invade'. It was poorly conceived and that's why we are still there. It's not being a pussy to plan things properly and use diplomacy first. If that doesn't work then you can always use force, I'm sure the Taliban didn't want to be ousted from power.

4. No, I have never taken a life. And I don't plan on doing so either. I'm sure it is a horrible job with neither side playing completely by the rules. I haven't experienced war first hand, but that doesn't discount my objections to war. I don't want any US soldier or Afghan citizens killed. My objection to the war is about wanting peace and for both sides to just call it quits and go home to their families. Nothing can be won in a war like this. It is too far removed from attempt to find the 9/11 attackers and is now about making the corrupt government more secure. The Afghans must begin to take responsibility for themselves. Of course, we should aid them...but what we are doing is too much and will only result in a lot more of our lives lost. I don't want that.

5. Left/right is a divide that doesn't really exist in the mainstream political arena anymore and hasn't for several decades. They are both pretty right wing. I understand that you are a soldier and that you are just following orders. I would find that very tough to do considering that the elite have no morality. It becomes a blurred line where the good guys are no longer so good and the bad have a justification for defending themselves. It takes guts to stick that out, I know I couldn't do it.

My issue is not with the American people nor with the military. It is all down to the political elite and the hypocrisy and deceit they are dishing out all in collusion with the mainstream media to spoonfeed a public who are getting screwed left, right and centre. No decent person wants to see that, but unfortunately that's what we are seeing right now.