One More Question

[Fenster]

But, even if you test clean, it doesn't prove or disprove what has happened in the past. The only way to know someone never juiced was if they were always tested in the way Floyd demanded. And because of Floyd's allegations, even if Manny tested clean, won't there always be doubt by some people?

What you're saying is that if it is not about the money and not about the pride, it must be about ego? Makes sense.

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

Exactly!

Then Floyd would have needed other excuses to throwaway $50 million

As for the original question - whatever happens now there will ALWAYS be a swathe of boxing fans saying Pac was a drug cheat. Even if innocent, he's tarnished his position in boxing, sadly.

[fan johnny]

Can you guys answer me one more question? Let's assume Pacquiao (as he should have) decided to take the tests demanded by Floyd, would that have convinced you that Manny never had been on steroids in the past? Is there anything that would convince you Manny didn't take drugs in the past?

See me personally, I don't think so unless Manny whupped Floyd after passing all of Floyd's tests, but even then that could be attributed to Manny just being better. The truth is there is no way absent admission by the fighter himself or proof by the supplier that a fighter took roids in the past. There just isn't. If he had taken the tests, the motivation behind it could have just been the coin. 20M is enough money to convince me, especially if I was brought up dirt poor in a third-world country, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. I'd be clean for one fight for 20M, take that to the bank. I may have juiced my whole way up, but for 20M, I'd be clean for three months, believe that.

That is one reason why this whole thing is odd to me. Why not just stay clean for one fight, make the most cheddar you've ever seen, and go back to juicing if that is what you were doing? What would one clean fight prove? It can't be pride in winning because you've already lost and even if you lose, your fans can rightfully or wrongly chalk it up to the fact Floyd is a bigger man. Not to mention, we all know Floyd isn't knocking you out so you won't be damaged goods, you can land one or two more big fights and make another 10M - 15M. Actually, in loss it may even be easier to land more big fights because you don't seem as invincible anymore.

As an aside, the funny thing about all of this to me is that prior to the juicing allegations, I thought Manny was fighting an uphill battle anyway; Floyd would win and win by a wide UD. Wins over ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto didn't do enough to convince me that Manny would be able to find a way to get inside Floyd's reach. In fact, given the hype surrounding Manny after his win over Cotto, I thought the odds were too good to pass up, and even though I'm not a betting man per se, I was planning to lay down a large wad of cash of Floyd. I thought Manny hadn't faced a slick fighter like Floyd before and it would lead to his fall from grace. I'm pretty sure many of you felt the same way. This is all before the Roids allegations.

Floyd and his camp knew that Manny would not agree to PRE fight blood testing due to whatever superstitions or beliefs that Manny has. Manny's offer to be blood tested IMMEDIATELY after the fight is proof enough for me that he has nothing to hide. Only a true fool would believe that the results would be different over the one hour that it takes if the fight goes the distance. Face facts, Floyd is much more concerned with the 0 under the loss column than he is with one more victory. What do you think that fake retirement crap was all about if not a convenient way to not fight and pray that somebody, anybody would beat Manny so that he didn't HAVE to fight him.

What a load of shit. PED's can be cycled in and out of your blood stream, in a matter of a couple of days. Just because Pac may not have the drugs in his system straight after a fight does not mean he hasnt been using them in preparation, hence giving him a better training camp and better strength/fitness come fightnight. Manny is the guy who walked away from this fight not Floyd.
You wanna face facts? The facts are Manny Pacquiao ran away from the bigest fight of his career becasue he didnt wanna take random blood tests and it has tarnished his legacy forever.

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

[Kirkland Laing]

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

Kirkland, you didn't really respond to my post or you did it in a round-about way. Are you saying that if Pacquiao had agreed to take the test for this one fight versus Mayweather and tested clean, win or lose, it would have erased any doubt you had of his using steroids in the past? How would testing clean for the fight with Mayweather change your opinion of his taking any drugs for the Cotto fight? He didn't undergo the tests that Mayweather is requiring of him in that fight as far as I know. Even if he tested clean as Mayweather demanded, maybe this was just a big pay day and it was worth it to not take drugs for one fight.

I totally agree, as I said in my post, that he should have taken the tests because we would have been able to watch Mayweather v. Pacquiao, but I don't see how it would dispel any doubt you had about Pacquiao taking drugs in the past.

The conclusion I am trying to draw is that Pac not taking the tests for this fight is odd because its not like testing clean for this fight means he didn't take drugs on his way up the weight class ladder when taking drugs would have been seemingly more beneficial. And this was his biggest pay day. He's been fighting at 145 now for a little while.

Let's say Pacquiao had been guilty of taking drugs in the past and had agreed to take the tests, even though logically it shouldn't clear his name, for yourself and other's like you, it may have cleared his name and in the process he could have made 20M. So, why not just test clean for this fight especially if he's been guilty in the past?

It'd be hard to judge against Mayweather because I'd expect him to lose to Mayweather either way. If he fought Mayweather and looked like a blown-up powderpuff version of a guy who'd lost to a shot featherweight five years ago it'd confirm to me he was a cheater. But if he was dinging Floyd with hard punches occasionally and had taken random tests I'd be inclined to believe the last five years had been legit. Ideally I'd like to see his next fight to be against JMM at 135 with daily tests so there's no way he could cheat. I'd love to see that.

The thing that gets me about Manny is the Cotto fight. I can accept he's got better as a boxer over the last few years. I can accept that DLH and Hatton were nowhere near their previous standards. But to beat Cotto up like that, to be hurting him nearly every time he landed, for an ex-106 pounder, no fucking way.

I think he won't fight Floyd without his roids because he'd get the shit beaten out of him for twelve rounds. He'd get beaten so badly that nobody would be talking about Manny the all time great and everybody would be talking about Floyd. The only chance he has in that fight is to be able to do a lot of damage when he does land, he needs the power that the PEDs give him. At this stage of his career he's going to make big money from all his fights, he does films etc. back home. He can afford to give up twenty or thirty mill and keep his reputation, losing to Floyd would shatter it.

[Kirkland Laing]

Look, I've studied steroid use in the past. I am by no means an expert. But I don't see any physical signs of using on Manny. Steroid use, especially if it's been for years, would present with backne. We couldn't see this on baseball players because they wear shirts. Don't see any of it on Manny. And for his weight gain over the last 5 years (which hasn't been all that much if you compare tale of the tapes on fight nights) He's still a little guy. I figured that if he had been using he'd have a physique more like Jeff Lacy. Just my opinion though.

HGH isn't a steroid though and it'd be the perfect thing for Manny to take. He could be doing hgh, epo and other stuff and it'd only be detectable with random testing.

[eagle]

Floyd and his camp knew that Manny would not agree to PRE fight blood testing due to whatever superstitions or beliefs that Manny has. Manny's offer to be blood tested IMMEDIATELY after the fight is proof enough for me that he has nothing to hide. Only a true fool would believe that the results would be different over the one hour that it takes if the fight goes the distance. Face facts, Floyd is much more concerned with the 0 under the loss column than he is with one more victory. What do you think that fake retirement crap was all about if not a convenient way to not fight and pray that somebody, anybody would beat Manny so that he didn't HAVE to fight him.

What a load of shit. PED's can be cycled in and out of your blood stream, in a matter of a couple of days. Just because Pac may not have the drugs in his system straight after a fight does not mean he hasnt been using them in preparation, hence giving him a better training camp and better strength/fitness come fightnight. Manny is the guy who walked away from this fight not Floyd.
You wanna face facts? The facts are Manny Pacquiao ran away from the bigest fight of his career becasue he didnt wanna take random blood tests and it has tarnished his legacy forever.

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

I was answering a moron who said he couldnt use PED's if he was tested 24 days before the fight, and just after the fight. I was merely explaining that it would be easy to do. Pac is the one who needs to PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Take the tests, come thru clean, and fight just as well, then people like me can never doubt him again. Acting the way he is just causes more doubts in everyones mind but brainless PACTARDS.

[Kirkland Laing]

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

There are dozens of links to the information in previous posts if you read through the forum. Things like HGH, epo are only detectable for a day or two. That's why random testing is necessary.

Furthermore, the current methods related to detecting Hgh in blood samples are only useful for about 48 hours after injection; after which the tests reliability drops dramatically.

Dr. Johnny Benjamin: Apparently Floyd Mayweather Knows a Thing or Two About PED Testing



Travis Tygart, chief executive of the United States Anti-Doping Agency, said a blood test can allow testers to detect use of energy-boosting synthetic EPO, human growth hormone and "a number of potent performance-enhancers not detectable in urine. . . . With a [30-day] window like that, you could dope to the gills and get away with it."

Mayweather seeks strict drug testing for bout with Pacquiao - latimes.com


Pacquiao has agreed to have his blood tested three times: in early January, when the fight was expected to be announced, 30 days before the fight and immediately after it. He also agreed to random urine testing.
But Tygart said the 30-day window would still allow an athlete plenty of time to dope with illegal substances not detectable by urine testing.
“That kind of window is totally unacceptable,” Tygart said. “It would provide a huge loophole for a cheater to step through and get away with cheating.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/sp...r=2&ref=sports









FanHouse: Can you break down the differences between the effectiveness of drug-detection between urinalysis and blood-testing?

Travis Tygart: There's a host of significant and potent performance enhancing drugs that only blood will detect. Those include human growth hormone [HGH]; HBOC -- and that is synthetic hemoglobin; transfusions; certain forms of EPO, such as Mircera, which is essentially a designer EPO.

So those are a few of the specific drugs. There is also a different technique, which is known as parameter testing, which is done by the blood, or biological passport testing. Essentially, what it does is that it does not detect a specific drug like HGH.

But it looks at a host of parameters or biological markers that are natural to everyone's body. And over time -- if you look at those for an individual -- over time, you can see variability or fluctuations in those naturally occurring markers that we all have.

And if you see fluctuations to a certain degree, you can conclusively determine that those fluctuations were caused by nothing other than drug use, and certain categories of drug use. Not necessarily a specific drug, but categories of drug use.

I think that it's fair to say that there are several, very potent, performance enhancing drugs that only blood can detect, and there is an entirely different method of detecting broader categories of drug use through parameter testing that is done with the blood.


FH: What would it have taken to meld an inaugural blood-testing procedure into place for the Floyd Mayweather-Manny Pacquiao fight in terms of logistics and cost, considering it never has been used by the Nevada State Athletic Commission?

Tygart: Cancel one day of mediation or one state commission meeting, and you've paid for it. It's not cost-prohibitive, particularly, given this kind of a fight, and the money that's being exchanged in the hands. It's not a money issue.

The issue is whether there enough familiarity with the benefits of an Olympic-style, USADA-run, testing program to want to do it. Is this slightly more intrusive? Sure.

Does it mean that you have to be available for blood and urinalysis testing, which might interrupt your ability to go out to dinner at the set time you wanted? Or watch the television that you might want to watch? Possibly.

But it's a slight inconvenience that 3,000-plus athletes, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, seven days a week -- including holidays -- whole-heartedly agree to because they know that that slight inconvenience is worth the benefit of having all of the competitors tested by an effective program.


FH: Has there ever been a movement to create a national testing policy for boxing?

Tygart: There's been no real legs to be one in the states, but there certainly needs to be one. Hopefully this fight happens. But if it doesn't happen because one athlete is demanding the highest level of testing, then that's good for clean athletes, and clean athletes' voices ought to be heard.

Hopefully the states as well as the various organizations will finally listen to clean athletes and put in an effective program. That's what happened in the Olympic movement. The clean athletes finally said, 'Enough, we're tired of losing to cheaters, and we don't want to endanger our health to cheaters. So we want change.'

And we know -- and the world knows -- that having independent entities running gold standard practices is what we demand. And we're willing to live with a little inconvenience, and we might even be willing to live with a little less money and prizes, if we feel that it's being run fairly, uniformly and under the best practices.'


FH: Does this request by the Mayweather camp give you enough of a platform to push for random blood-testing inclusion in boxing for the future?

Tygart: There were numerous conversations that we had with both camps on the detail of what it would take for us to be involved in this. There was a cart-blanche, 'We want USADA to do it. We've gotten familiar with the program. We understand its pluses and minor inconveniences.'

'There are 3,000-plus athletes around the U.S. who are at the top of their game making more money or equal to the money that these guys do, who are subject to it, and it works for them, and they're the best that there is, and that's what we want.'

Particularly given a sport like boxing where not only does a cheater potentially win a prize, but a cheater can cause physical harm to someone else too, particularly if they're doped up. And that element of the discussion has gotten lost. And I think that that's unfortunate.

But I think that there's a real safety and health concern that we all want to be cognizant about. What I can say is that our program does not in any way inconvenience any athlete's -- including a boxer's -- ability to prepare or train for their fight.

So it's hard for me to understand -- and this is not a specific comment about any of the fighters involved here -- but it's hard for me to understand why any athlete wouldn't want the same program that all of our Olympic athletes have.

That is, if they understand these issues, and they're familiar with the programs, and they're educated on the mild inconvenience, and they appreciate the importance of a level playing field.


FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.


FH: What about gaining weight?

Tygart: Similarly, that's the football players. If you want to go from a buck-70, to a buck-85, and still have lean muscle mass, and strength, that's what you're going to do is some cycles of steroids. You then couple that. You can go from 140, to 160, or 145 to 155, whatever the case may be.

And there are different versions, whether you're talking a Deca [Deca-Durabolin,] or a Winnie [Winstrol,] or a Stanozolol. I testified out there for the California Athletic Commission for an MMA fighter. They had three cases they were dealing with and I was just there to define general policies.

One of them was caught for a classic cocktail that you would want to have. It was one of the fighters. It was lean muscle mass. Everybody on the streets and in the gym knows that if you're in a weight category and in competition, in a combat sport -- whether its judo, or boxing, or karate, or tai kwan do -- that's a classic cocktail that you would use.

When you're cutting weight, it will give you the lean muscle mass that you need, to have as much strength, pound-for-pound, as you can at that weight classification -- whether it's lower for you or higer for you. And then you have those that will just build muscle.

The combination of those strength-type, pound-for-pound strength drugs, which would include the anabolic steroids and the human growth hormones, the insulin, and then you couple that with the blood-doping-type drugs -- the HBOC, the designer, or the regular EPOs -- that then is going to give you the endurance to go along with that strength in late rounds of events.

[Kirkland Laing]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

[15rounder]

Another typical post by you eagle...while some are pretty good, most are ignorant and short sited. It's no secret that Floyd is an incesant gambler, or that he's had numerous problems with the I.R.S. These, my friend, are what we call facts...Floyd's had no problem telling the whole world that on more than one occassion he's lost a million in one weekend gambling. And it's funny that you would ask me if I'm an expert on Floyds money when you have numerous postings where you claim to be an expert on Pacquious psyche. You claim to be knowing exactly what's going on in his head and in his camp. It's almost as if you sat there and watched him take drugs. Your argument is based on assumptions, mine are based on facts. It's not hard to find the video of pacmans 2005 interview where he was complaining of blood being drawn before the Morales fight (which he lost) and one could easily draw the conclusion that he would refuse to do it again. So in closing, open that narrow brain of yours and have the common decency to listen to someones opinion other than your own. You are not always right about everything. And not everyone deserves a curse word from you just because every single point in every single thought doesn't line up with exactly what you think. This isn't black and white. There's plenty of gray area here.

[eagle]

Another typical post by you eagle...while some are pretty good, most are ignorant and short sited. It's no secret that Floyd is an incesant gambler, or that he's had numerous problems with the I.R.S. These, my friend, are what we call facts...Floyd's had no problem telling the whole world that on more than one occassion he's lost a million in one weekend gambling. And it's funny that you would ask me if I'm an expert on Floyds money when you have numerous postings where you claim to be an expert on Pacquious psyche. You claim to be knowing exactly what's going on in his head and in his camp. It's almost as if you sat there and watched him take drugs. Your argument is based on assumptions, mine are based on facts. It's not hard to find the video of pacmans 2005 interview where he was complaining of blood being drawn before the Morales fight (which he lost) and one could easily draw the conclusion that he would refuse to do it again. So in closing, open that narrow brain of yours and have the common decency to listen to someones opinion other than your own. You are not always right about everything. And not everyone deserves a curse word from you just because every single point in every single thought doesn't line up with exactly what you think. This isn't black and white. There's plenty of gray area here.

So show me these facts that prove Pac didnt take drugs, Floyd is broke and needs the money from this fight to survive. In 2005 the blood was drawn 3 days before the fight, PBF allowed that to change to 14 days beforehand so tht argument is null and void.

[TheBranMan]

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

There are dozens of links to the information in previous posts if you read through the forum. Things like HGH, epo are only detectable for a day or two. That's why random testing is necessary.

~articles, etc, etc~

Good post, although, no matter how many facts you post, Pacquiao fans will ignore or choose not to understand the reality of drug testing. Random blood testing will need to become the norm in championship bouts in the near future if boxing wants to become a serious sport anyway.

I, like most true boxing fans, would just like to see both fighters take the tests, so that I know I've paid for a fair fight. If he losses in embarrassing fashion, yes, I'll question his methods in previous bouts, but if he shows even sparks of his recent explosiveness (win or loose), I'll have to assume he's been clean his whole career.

Those Pacquiao fans who say that they "don't care" if he's using PEDs just disgust me. Those kind of statements just show that you don't respect the sport or sportsmanship in general.

[fan johnny]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

Dr. Johnny has noting but innuendo and half truths in his blog and fails to present any tangible scientific facts. He says nothing to back up claim that Mayweather knows a thing or two. Nothing! Take a look at the comments.

A very convoluted interview from the good Dr. Tygart. It means nothing as far as random blood being needed to find HGH that urine testing couldn't do. I have already addressed the issue of HGH in other posts. There has never (Yes, NEVER!) been a positive blood test for HGH of an athlete. It doesn't work. The experts have claimed to the Anti-doping committees and congress that the reasons it hasn't worked so far is because the test is being applied wrong. (i.e. at competitions) Hence we now have random testing out of competition. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sp...1baseball.html
Conclusion: The Scientist made a lot of money selling this product and can't back it up. So now we have random testing. We now have scientist that have resulted to fishing.

There is a test for HGH that may have more success which is a urine test.
CeresNano

Given that it is extremely difficult to catch a cheater using the HGH, then why doesn't the good doctor recommend the use of the urine test? The subject is a single event where there are only two combatants. It doesn't warrant an Olympic-Style setup for 1000's of competitors that are screened for irregularities and then once someone as an irregularity further testing is applied. The point is the interview he is giving is more geared toward selling the testing procedures for boxing as a whole and not specifically for this one fight.

Now for EPO. If EPO is used, it's purpose is to increase the oxygen capacity of blood. It would do absolutely no good to use EPO during training and then cycle off it for the fight. It would actually have a counter effect. So there is absolutely no reason that testing 30 days before and immediately following the fight that EPO couldn't be detected if used. In addition EPO can be tested for using urine which is actually a direct method rather than just blood profiling which is an indirect method. Drug Tests Used in Sports - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

So check it out.

If your going to dig an experts link out, try to do one that doesn't have a hard on for Mayweather or strong ties to GBP. They appear to have altier motives and tend not to give complete answers.

[UKPH]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

Dr. Johnny has noting but innuendo and half truths in his blog and fails to present any tangible scientific facts. He says nothing to back up claim that Mayweather knows a thing or two. Nothing! Take a look at the comments.

A very convoluted interview from the good Dr. Tygart. It means nothing as far as random blood being needed to find HGH that urine testing couldn't do. I have already addressed the issue of HGH in other posts. There has never (Yes, NEVER!) been a positive blood test for HGH of an athlete. It doesn't work. The experts have claimed to the Anti-doping committees and congress that the reasons it hasn't worked so far is because the test is being applied wrong. (i.e. at competitions) Hence we now have random testing out of competition. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sp...1baseball.html
Conclusion: The Scientist made a lot of money selling this product and can't back it up. So now we have random testing. We now have scientist that have resulted to fishing.

There is a test for HGH that may have more success which is a urine test.
CeresNano

Given that it is extremely difficult to catch a cheater using the HGH, then why doesn't the good doctor recommend the use of the urine test? The subject is a single event where there are only two combatants. It doesn't warrant an Olympic-Style setup for 1000's of competitors that are screened for irregularities and then once someone as an irregularity further testing is applied. The point is the interview he is giving is more geared toward selling the testing procedures for boxing as a whole and not specifically for this one fight.

Now for EPO. If EPO is used, it's purpose is to increase the oxygen capacity of blood. It would do absolutely no good to use EPO during training and then cycle off it for the fight. It would actually have a counter effect. So there is absolutely no reason that testing 30 days before and immediately following the fight that EPO couldn't be detected if used. In addition EPO can be tested for using urine which is actually a direct method rather than just blood profiling which is an indirect method. Drug Tests Used in Sports - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

So check it out.

If your going to dig an experts link out, try to do one that doesn't have a hard on for Mayweather or strong ties to GBP. They appear to have altier motives and tend not to give complete answers.

Thanks for the additional info....yup we have to give the balance between the lines

Besides negotiation fell off. If the commision implement wheter it will be updated or not, for their test it should be the base for both fighters and be respected and fight, simple as that.

[Rantcatrat]

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

Kirkland, you didn't really respond to my post or you did it in a round-about way. Are you saying that if Pacquiao had agreed to take the test for this one fight versus Mayweather and tested clean, win or lose, it would have erased any doubt you had of his using steroids in the past? How would testing clean for the fight with Mayweather change your opinion of his taking any drugs for the Cotto fight? He didn't undergo the tests that Mayweather is requiring of him in that fight as far as I know. Even if he tested clean as Mayweather demanded, maybe this was just a big pay day and it was worth it to not take drugs for one fight.

I totally agree, as I said in my post, that he should have taken the tests because we would have been able to watch Mayweather v. Pacquiao, but I don't see how it would dispel any doubt you had about Pacquiao taking drugs in the past.

The conclusion I am trying to draw is that Pac not taking the tests for this fight is odd because its not like testing clean for this fight means he didn't take drugs on his way up the weight class ladder when taking drugs would have been seemingly more beneficial. And this was his biggest pay day. He's been fighting at 145 now for a little while.

Let's say Pacquiao had been guilty of taking drugs in the past and had agreed to take the tests, even though logically it shouldn't clear his name, for yourself and other's like you, it may have cleared his name and in the process he could have made 20M. So, why not just test clean for this fight especially if he's been guilty in the past?

It'd be hard to judge against Mayweather because I'd expect him to lose to Mayweather either way. If he fought Mayweather and looked like a blown-up powderpuff version of a guy who'd lost to a shot featherweight five years ago it'd confirm to me he was a cheater. But if he was dinging Floyd with hard punches occasionally and had taken random tests I'd be inclined to believe the last five years had been legit. Ideally I'd like to see his next fight to be against JMM at 135 with daily tests so there's no way he could cheat. I'd love to see that.

The thing that gets me about Manny is the Cotto fight. I can accept he's got better as a boxer over the last few years. I can accept that DLH and Hatton were nowhere near their previous standards. But to beat Cotto up like that, to be hurting him nearly every time he landed, for an ex-106 pounder, no fucking way.

I think he won't fight Floyd without his roids because he'd get the shit beaten out of him for twelve rounds. He'd get beaten so badly that nobody would be talking about Manny the all time great and everybody would be talking about Floyd. The only chance he has in that fight is to be able to do a lot of damage when he does land, he needs the power that the PEDs give him. At this stage of his career he's going to make big money from all his fights, he does films etc. back home. He can afford to give up twenty or thirty mill and keep his reputation, losing to Floyd would shatter it.

I'll respond to the highlighted sections in order.

First, it is IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely accurately look at a specific performance (e.g. if Pacquiao fought Mayweather) and say "well, in that one fight he was using roids, but in that one there, he wasn't" without tests or proof from a witness that Pacquiao used steroids.

He didn't hurt Cotto everytime he landed and steroids don't change your punches from average welterweight punches to heavyweight punches. From what I gather, most of the time steroids and the ones Pacquiao has been accused of using are more to help with endurance and recovery. They don't change your fists into bricks.

When was the last time Floyd retired anyone? He doesn't practice that style of boxing. Hatton got a huge pay day after the Floyd fight in the Pacquiao fight. Most of the time Floyd doesn't even look for the knockout - see the Marquez fight. And above and beyond, unlike Floyd, Pacquiao has lost before even been knocked out, why would losing to Floyd be a deal breaker on not taking roids especially when we are talking about upwards of $20M. Also, it's not like Pacquiao has ever been afraid to fight anyone. Why would Floyd scare him when he has fought more aggressive fighters in the past especially when he is making $20M? Like I said, I may be scared to get in the ring with Vlad or Vitali without the help of roids, but for $20M, I'd be leap-frogging the ring to get into it and I didn't grow up dirt poor in the Philipines where my dad ate my dog for dinner.

But, for you, if I interpret you correctly, is that it all boils down to the fact that if Pacquiao tested clean for this fight, you would agree he had never used drugs in the past? See for the reasons above, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does one clean fight vindicate him? And, if it does, why not just take the test and test clean and lose? You'd be $20M richer, considered a steroids-clean boxer, and more famous. Plus, you'd appear valient and fans would give you props for getting in the ring with a bigger man in Floyd even in defeat. Like they do Pavlik with Hopkins and even after losing horribly Pavlik is still getting multi-million dollar fights.

[Rantcatrat]

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

There are dozens of links to the information in previous posts if you read through the forum. Things like HGH, epo are only detectable for a day or two. That's why random testing is necessary.

~articles, etc, etc~

Good post, although, no matter how many facts you post, Pacquiao fans will ignore or choose not to understand the reality of drug testing. Random blood testing will need to become the norm in championship bouts in the near future if boxing wants to become a serious sport anyway.

I, like most true boxing fans, would just like to see both fighters take the tests, so that I know I've paid for a fair fight. If he losses in embarrassing fashion, yes, I'll question his methods in previous bouts, but if he shows even sparks of his recent explosiveness (win or loose), I'll have to assume he's been clean his whole career.

Those Pacquiao fans who say that they "don't care" if he's using PEDs just disgust me. Those kind of statements just show that you don't respect the sport or sportsmanship in general.

Bran, I'm glad you posted on this thread because I've noticed you have a lot of problems with Pacquiao's refusal to take the tests. I'll respond to your points in turn as well.

First, let me say that I too would like to see random drug testing become the norm in fights and I too agree that taking a "I don't care" attitude about performance enhancing drugs is ridiculous.

What you're saying is that after testing clean, if Pacquiao loses in embarrassing fashion to an undefeated, top p4p fighter in the world, you would question his previous bouts but if he just loses, wins a round here and there, you wouldn't? No offense, but that sounds completely arbitrary and subjective and impossible to be accurate at all. How about he just lost to a better fighter? Or that his style his made for Mayweather, a classic slick counter puncher, a better version of Marquez. Recall the difficulty Pacquiao had with Marquez's style and he was a smaller poor man's Mayweather.

Again, I don't know about you, but regardless of all the steroids talk, I thought Pacquiao would be destroyed anyway and lose ten rounds or so out of twelve. Check my previous posts prior to the steroids accusations.

How about the alternative - Pacquiao beats Mayweather in five rounds after testing clean? Couldn't it be that he used steroids to get himself up to 147 faster, but that for the one fight, to make $20M, he didn't? It's not like steroids change his skill set or his style. Maybe we are wrong and his style actually is a difficult style for Mayweather? His one clean test wouldn't prove that he was dirty in the past.

From what you have said, if you'll assume he's clean for his entire career from one clean test, why not just take these random tests, pocket the coin, lose the fight, and call it a day. Your career is vindicated, your legacy intact, you go down as an all-time great, and you are $20M richer. Right?

[15rounder]

Another typical post by you eagle...while some are pretty good, most are ignorant and short sited. It's no secret that Floyd is an incesant gambler, or that he's had numerous problems with the I.R.S. These, my friend, are what we call facts...Floyd's had no problem telling the whole world that on more than one occassion he's lost a million in one weekend gambling. And it's funny that you would ask me if I'm an expert on Floyds money when you have numerous postings where you claim to be an expert on Pacquious psyche. You claim to be knowing exactly what's going on in his head and in his camp. It's almost as if you sat there and watched him take drugs. Your argument is based on assumptions, mine are based on facts. It's not hard to find the video of pacmans 2005 interview where he was complaining of blood being drawn before the Morales fight (which he lost) and one could easily draw the conclusion that he would refuse to do it again. So in closing, open that narrow brain of yours and have the common decency to listen to someones opinion other than your own. You are not always right about everything. And not everyone deserves a curse word from you just because every single point in every single thought doesn't line up with exactly what you think. This isn't black and white. There's plenty of gray area here.

So show me these facts that prove Pac didnt take drugs, Floyd is broke and needs the money from this fight to survive. In 2005 the blood was drawn 3 days before the fight, PBF allowed that to change to 14 days beforehand so tht argument is null and void.

Thank you for proving my point...your ASSUMING Pac-man is taking drugs. Show me a failed drug test from Pac-man and then I'll say he's taking drugs. I can give you plenty of facts that Pac-man isn't taking drugs. How about his HUNDREDS OF PASSED DRUG TESTS. I already explained to you and everyone else in here why he turned down the 14 day option (in my opinion), the damage had already been done and he was way passed pissed off. Again, thank you for proving my point with your response.