Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston

[OumaFan]

Tyson's kind of like Naz, you can't look at their whole careers cause they just let themselves go, you've just gotta look at that point in time when they were at their peak (no matter how short a time period that might have been)and if you do you would have to admit that they would have likely been too much for anyone around their weight class no matter what era. All the Tillis fight really showed was that a poorly motivated Tyson could still cruise against an Ali type opponent (not quite of Ali's caliber obviously but still Tyson would have been far more motivated for an Ali fight). Same with Naz really, I'm not sure how anyone could watch the Jose Badillo fight and think Morales could beat that Naz. And that's obviously just one example.

[ross]

Mike Tyson was a fighter you could put in with anyone confident of him winning, Hamed wasnt, you always had suspicions that a decent boxer would take him, Jose Badillo isnt really a yard stick of greatness either.

Hamed beat some good fighter but it always looked as though Barrera and Morales could take him.

Mike nearly ran out of viable opponents, Rooney said if he hadnt left they were going to pull Mike out for a few years and let some other fighters establish themseves as a base for opponents.

[OumaFan]

Its not about the quality of the opponent though, neither Tyson or Hamed beat many really quality opponents during their prime but the way they did it, you could just tell they were a level above. Unfortunately it was only later after they had started to fall off that they began to fight truly great fighters and because they lost to some of those guys people act like their prime was overrated, that the reason they looked so amazing was because they were feasting on less than elite fighters, which just isn't the case.

[Fenster]

Its not about the quality of the opponent though, neither Tyson or Hamed beat many really quality opponents during their prime but the way they did it, you could just tell they were a level above. Unfortunately it was only later after they had started to fall off that they began to fight truly great fighters and because they lost to some of those guys people act like their prime was overrated, that the reason they looked so amazing was because they were feasting on less than elite fighters, which just isn't the case.

This.

Tyson's kind of like Naz, you can't look at their whole careers cause they just let themselves go, you've just gotta look at that point in time when they were at their peak (no matter how short a time period that might have been)and if you do you would have to admit that they would have likely been too much for anyone around their weight class no matter what era. All the Tillis fight really showed was that a poorly motivated Tyson could still cruise against an Ali type opponent (not quite of Ali's caliber obviously but still Tyson would have been far more motivated for an Ali fight). Same with Naz really, I'm not sure how anyone could watch the Jose Badillo fight and think Morales could beat that Naz. And that's obviously just one example.

And this.

[OumaFan]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

[rjj tszyu]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

Yes but you cannot judge what one fighter does against anothers common opponent in the way you have above. Evander would have always beaten Tyson.

You saying look what Tyson did to Holmes and then point out that Holmes wen tthe distance with Evander means nothing. Look what Frazier did to Ali in the first fight and then look what Foreman did to Frazier. Doesn't mean Foreman is going to destroy Ali does it??

[Fenster]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

You mean he purposely got his glove caught in the ropes? Hmm.. it does sort of make sense.

Quality of opposition is totally overrated. I agree. Fact.

[OumaFan]

I think its the most likely explanation. Sometimes its easy to over think things and miss what's right in front of you, Occam's Razor and such.

As far as Tyson-Holyfield, it just wasn't a prime Tyson, maybe Holyfield was a bad style matchup but we'll never know

[ICB]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

Larry Holmes went through a bad patch during the mid 80's, he didn't look good vs Carl Williams or Michael Spinks. Plus he was ring rusty, and didn't have alot of time to train for Mike Tyson, i think the early 40's version of Larry Holmes was better than the late 30's Larry Holmes.

[rjj tszyu]

Mike Tyson was a fighter you could put in with anyone confident of him winning, Hamed wasnt, you always had suspicions that a decent boxer would take him, Jose Badillo isnt really a yard stick of greatness either.

Hamed beat some good fighter but it always looked as though Barrera and Morales could take him.

Mike nearly ran out of viable opponents, Rooney said if he hadnt left they were going to pull Mike out for a few years and let some other fighters establish themseves as a base for opponents.

Well he'd have run into Evander whether he stayed with Rooney or not and the result would have been the same. Demolition of Tyson. Evander and Lewis are the only true world class guys he fought who were genuine HW's and he was destroyed by both.

[Zilla]

Mike Tyson was a fighter you could put in with anyone confident of him winning, Hamed wasnt, you always had suspicions that a decent boxer would take him, Jose Badillo isnt really a yard stick of greatness either.

Hamed beat some good fighter but it always looked as though Barrera and Morales could take him.

Mike nearly ran out of viable opponents, Rooney said if he hadnt left they were going to pull Mike out for a few years and let some other fighters establish themseves as a base for opponents.

Well he'd have run into Evander whether he stayed with Rooney or not and the result would have been the same. Demolition of Tyson. Evander and Lewis are the only true world class guys he fought who were genuine HW's and he was destroyed by both.

Let's be honest here. Mike way underestimated Holyfield (his own fault) because everyone thought Holyfield was washed up, including Evander. He didn't train and thought he could clear Holy out with one punch. And in the rematch Evander was using his head until Mike did the unspeakable. Had they fought pre-prison Mike wouldn't have thought of him as washed up and it would have been a completely different story, even if he did wind up losing still. And if a faded Tyson could win a round against Lewis, he could win several more in his prime if not take the fight. Tyson in his prime kills Lewis in that time, but that's simply because he'd been a pro longer.

[El Kabong]

I see this as a very close fight because #1 Liston demolished Floyd Patterson who had the very same style as Tyson albeit he was smaller and maybe had quicker but less powerful hands #2 Tyson worked over guys like Bruno and Bonecrusher Smith both of whom were lackluster versions of Liston BUT Tyson also got hurt in both those fights.

On one hand I see Liston smacking the crap out of Tyson like he did vs Patterson and on the other hand I see Tyson (having a far better chin than Floyd) getting rocked but coming back to stop Liston after Sonny had tired maybe round 5-7.

Both were big punchers, I highly doubt it would go the distance

[ross]

Stop bringing up the same tired old shiit about Mike being a bully and when Leiws and Holyfield stood up to him he crumbled, oh and Douglas.

The version of Tyson they fought had a bunch of cleless waankers training him, he wasnt sparring or running or doing anything that made him great.

To judge Mike on what happened after he came out of prison is like judging Ali on what happened in the last few years of his career, it was a totally different Ali.

Ill judge Mike on the best version, on the best versions capabilities.

The washed up untrained version wan a round against Lewis and ate all his big punches till he tired and Lewis pushed him down, only his chin got him that far, against Holyfield pretty much the same.

I did like the aggressive spurt just before he bit Holyfield, he threw a few combinations and was landing well and Holyfieldstood back and looked bemused, as if to say "fuck me, I havent experienced nothin like this before" that and the Golota fight are the only times I remember seeing tyson putting some care and agression in his work, like he wanted just hurt them.

At Mikes best he can beat anyone.

[El Kabong]

...so you're choosing to focus on the MYTH of Tyson rather than the reality of the fighter?