Which knuckles do the hitting in boxing?

[HerbM]

So I went to the noon boxing class today and when it came to the heavy bag my power-right hand index knuckle was still VERY slightly sore so I concentrated on hitting with the smaller knuckles.

Here is what happened:

1. It didn't hurt so that was an improvement
2. It seemed like I was hitting harder (very subjective)
3. It seemed that I was rotating better (shoulders/waist)

Subjectively it really did feel like I was getting a better line (Dempsey calls it the "power line") from the foot to the knuckles.

This and the slightly improved rotation would actually make for a harder hit.

So for now I am a (tentative) believer.

Thanks for the help.

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HerbM

[Chris Nagel]

Hi Herb, that's nice to hear.

Another quick tip for the heavy bag is to not try hard to move it. Now I'm not talking about pushing your punches, but rather that you shouldn't succumb to the inclination to constantly hit hard. Especially when working with a harder/stiffer bag, which otherwise would lead to sore hands and shoulders.

Opt for a softer or lighter bag if available. Keep moving instead of trying to move the bag. A little push to get the bag swinging is fine, but don't try to get the same effect with your punches. This is just a simple suggestion, and not meant to be criticism.

[HerbM]

[Chris, I know you are just being helpful and you really don't even have to apologize for any criticism -- I am pretty egoless in this whole thing. I am not trying to prove how great I am, just trying to incrementally get better. I appreciate ALL of your help.]

Bag choice is coach's -- he assigns us to bags, and yes, I likely bruised the knuckles on the hardest bag. He has generally avoided assigning me to that bag, but not this time.

We do move when we hit -- as soon as we quit being absolute newbies, coach has us move and hit.

Yes, I am hitting hard -- really hard for me -- and hoping to hit even harder, but mostly I am working on hitting harder with the jab and letting the power hand take care of itself (but that is the knuckle that primarily hurt.

Today, I did three classes. Our classes are not heroic, but they are pretty serious (about 1:30 of constant moving). That was a lot of hitting, and with your (and Dempsey's) guidance the knuckle not only didn't bother me through all three classes -- in fact it seems to be a little better even. (Of course this was never a 'bad' pain, just a small irritation that I didn't want to get worse.)

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HerbM

[HerbM]

A follow-up to confirm the posts above:

I am sticking with the idea of AIMING with the Ring Finger to achieve a 3-knuckle landing (Small, Ring, Middle).

It is far more comfortable now that I am hitting harder, and it seems to be more powerful, mostly due to helping with shoulder and hip rotation.

One other thing (I have never seen this listed among "how to punch harder tips" in any book or forum, but do believe I have seen it mentioned casually as a separate item):

I am concentrating on hitting not just with the Ring finger knuckle but hitting a specific spot on the bag. I sport a label, bag scuff, sweat drop, whatever and AIM my ring finger knuckle at that exact spot as the bag moves.

This seems to have a bunch of advantages, including that eventually hitting someone perfectly on the chin (or wherever) will require accuracy.

A well-placed hit is much more likely to hit solidly and thus transfer more force being more effective (i.e., harder and sharper.)

It also keeps me focused and mentally as well as physically concentrating.

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HerbM

[JazMerkin]

Ok, I haven't properly read the responses of others who are all far more knowledgeable than me, but personally I always find that hitting with the lead two knuckles always seems to have more of an effect on the opponent. However, I have unusually prominent knuckles anyway which may have some effect on this.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents. I do think that the lead two knuckles are certainly better for straights as it keeps your balance that little bit more on point although that might just be personal perception.

[HerbM]

Allow me to preface by saying that until a couple of weeks ago, I was totally committed to always hitting with the first two knuckles -- this came from years of bare handed martial arts training. (Although, about a year ago, my Systema instructors made the case that SOME people -- not me -- were better off hitting with other knuckles.)

Then after reading Dempsey's book I tried the ring finger aiming technique.

This method definitely has NO ISSUE of balance.

The way I do it is to roll the arm a bit more over so that my hand is beyond knuckles-up/thumb-inside (about 30 degrees), and move that target knuckle directly on center line.

At this point, the angle between my chest and arm would be (slightly) decreased if nothing else were changed, so I also rotate a little bit further and this means that the I can straighten the line between back toes and striking knuckle even more. The feeling (subjective) here is definetely one of increased power from both the extra rotation and the extra rear foot power.

It also feels looser, easier to make that turn -- the turn comes naturally without being forced. I just 'think' about the target knuckle hit and most of the rest just follows.

I have NO PROOF that this is hitting harder, but it certainly seems to be the case after a couple of weeks on the bag.

I am certain it is more comfortable for repeated hard hits on the heavy bag while wearing gloves and wraps.

BTW, my first two knuckles are large and prominent too.

At least for now, were I in a bare knuckle fight I would intend to hit with the first two knuckles (they are larger and stronger, and trained in my case) for now, and in a boxing match I would try to aim with the ring finger as Dempsey instructs.

[I cannot be sure that continued boxing practice my override my previous training at some point however.]

--
HerbM

[JazMerkin]

I might give that a try then, but I've actually adapted from hitting with the last three fingers to the lead two. I think the balance thing probably is personal perception, but I always found that I was overreaching when throwing my straight right, and after switching to the lead two I felt much better balanced. I tend to turn my punch over a bit anyway, but I'll definitely give this a try. I think Jack Dempsey probably knew a bit more about punching than I do.

[HerbM]

[FYI: I am reading, re-reading etc Championship Fighting, Inside the Ring by Ross Enamait, Boxing by Haislett, and the Champ Thomas booklets...]

When I wrote the following it turned out that I had NOT read Dempsey (Championship Fighting) closely enough.

...
Then after reading Dempsey's book I tried the ring finger aiming technique.

...

The way I do it is to roll the arm a bit more over so that my hand is beyond knuckles-up/thumb-inside (about 30 degrees), and move that target knuckle directly on center line.

At this point, the angle between my chest and arm would be (slightly) decreased if nothing else were changed, so I also rotate a little bit further and this means that the I can straighten the line between back toes and striking knuckle even more. The feeling (subjective) here is definetely one of increased power from both the extra rotation and the extra rear foot power.

It also feels looser, easier to make that turn -- the turn comes naturally without being forced. I just 'think' about the target knuckle hit and most of the rest just follows.
...

Dempsey actually recommends turning the hand LESS for straight punches to the head when aiming with the ring finger and using the falling step.

He recommends hitting with a vertical fist -- not a horizontal one:

A stepping straight punch to the head should land
with the fist in an upright position to keep the punch straight. The instant you turn your fist to land palm-down in a head punch, you will begin to
loop the punch.

So I was wrong.

But wait, I may have discovered something useful, too.

If I want to add the shoulder whirl to my punch, then overturning it definitely helps. Later in the book, Dempsey instructs on the "shoulder whirl" and does recommend turning the fist (to palm down.)

It is when adding the should whirl that turning the fist is more important and correct.

I however, was already adding the whirl to the falling step (Dempsey also indicates this can be useful), and then turning the fist even MORE seems to work for me.

I would greatly appreciate it if any of you who have read and followed Dempsey's adviced would try this on the bag.

1. Falling step punch with vertical fist
2. Falling step punch with horizontal fist
3. Falling step punch with 'overturned' fist (about 30-45 degrees past horizontal)
4. #2 with shoulder whirl -- turn shoulders almost parallel to direction of punch
5. #3 with shoulder whirl -- turn shoulders almost parallel to direction of punch
6. You can also try these without the falling step, but only (some of) the whirl.

...and let me know what you discover, feel, and think.

I get a nice loose long punch with #5 that can include the falling step or not -- I can optionally leave out the shoulder whirl depending on my target and what I want to deliver.

[Now I am working on Hooks, and having both a frustrating and very interesting time - maybe I discovered something new here, but I have to get back over to the gym tomorrow to test it out. ]