What the fuck is it with the Ring and Nonito Donaire?

[DaxxKahn]

Well take into consideration that we are talking about the Ring's p4p list, Tarver and Johnson were both ring ranked fighters, so you could also say he's only fought ranked fighters over the last two years as well.

I really hold the Vargas fight against Donaire. The equivalent of that would be Chad Dawson fighting DeAndre Latimore quite literally.

I am going to have to go back and check but I don't think Tarver and Johnson were P4P when they fought Dawson...

Let me ask this...

Would you have held it against DLH if he beat Pacquiao?

Manny Jumped 2 weight classes to fight dlh LW to WW

DLH....5' 10 1/2" w 73" reach

Manny..5' 6 1/2" w 67" reach

DLH had a 4 inch height and 6 inch reach advantage

Donaire is 5' 6" w 68" reach

Vargas is 5' 6" w 63" reach

So Donaire fought a guy same height who was coming up 2 weight classes and had a 5 inch reach advantage

Oscar fought a guy 4 inches shorter and had a 6 inch reach advantage who was moving up 2 weight classes and had only 1 fight in the weight class he jumped up from

So if DLH beat Pac would that not be just as bad in fact worse because he had a much more sizable advantage...But DLH lost so it is OK?

Kind of a catch 22 no?

No not at all a catch 22 it was three weight classes for Vargas vs. Donaire (from Straw to Super Fly) and unless you are saying Vargas is the equivalent skill level of Pacquiao (#1 p4p), which he wasn't even rated by the ring at 105, and Donaire was as past it as ODLH it's apples to oranges. Certainly you will admit if ODLH would have beaten Pac, the issue of weight, reach etc. would have been brought up and Pac's loss would have been justified as a condition of those factors, of course it would put ODLH on the ring's p4p rankings not because he beat a much smaller man, but because he beat #1 p4p fighter in the world based on their own ranking system. I wasn't saying p4p rated in regards to Tarver and Johnson, I was saying Ring rated as in rated at light heavyweight Tarver and Johnson were both definately in the top 4 at light heavyweight each time Dawson fought them and the First time Dawson fought Tarver he was the #1 guy at 175.

No we can't sit a go with well Pacquiao was a better fighter and IF DLH beat Manny

Fact is it was the same situation and it did not work out the way DLH intended...

Well size part...Manny had 1 fight at LW are we going to seriously act as if he was then a full blown LW? So tbh he went from SFW to WW...3 weight classes...

What abt the size difference...DLH had a hell of a lot of size over Manny when compared to that of Donaire to Vargas...Donaire had a 5 inch reach adv he weighed 115 Vargas 114.......

So it would have been OK if Manny had lost because of DLH being so much bigger but it is a travesty because Donaire won when he had only a 5 inch reach adv...Hell how many heavies have that luxury over other heavies?

Pacquiao was a P4P ranked fighter but Vargas is a Former WBO champion and a top 10 MIN weight in the world...If he was P4P and fought Donaire it would have been different?

How?...You can not blast one guy for something he did but make excuses for another...

If a guy commits a crime and gets caught he is a criminal...If another guy commits the same crime and gets away with it...He is a criminal just one who got away with it...

DLH and Donaire are guilty of the same crime....DLH just didn't get away with it...

Yet on another note it was OK for PBF to beat up on a smaller Marquez?

Again that was different why? Because Marquez was P4P?...not so....

There are weight classes for a reason...

[Julius Rain]

you guys lost me with the odlh/ pac and vargas/donaire comparison, irrelevant aint it?

[DaxxKahn]

you guys lost me with the odlh/ pac and vargas/donaire comparison, irrelevant aint it?

It is relevant because KS used the Vargas fight with Donaire as an example on why he does not like him but NEVER 1 time made a comment abt DLH fighting Pacquiao when the fight was coming up that DLH was wrong...And then to say it was OK because Manny was P4P and Vargas is only top 10 in his division..even though he had lost the title 1 fight before...

Would it been OK if Donaire lost?...It still would have been him fighting a smaller man he was expected to beat but did not manage to do it...Ala DLH/Pacquiao

[killersheep]

you guys lost me with the odlh/ pac and vargas/donaire comparison, irrelevant aint it?

It is relevant because KS used the Vargas fight with Donaire as an example on why he does not like him but NEVER 1 time made a comment abt DLH fighting Pacquiao when the fight was coming up that DLH was wrong...And then to say it was OK because Manny was P4P and Vargas is only top 10 in his division..even though he had lost the title 1 fight before...

Would it been OK if Donaire lost?...It still would have been him fighting a smaller man he was expected to beat but did not manage to do it...Ala DLH/Pacquiao

TBH, I'm not sure where you're going with this now..........Vargas was not top 10 that I recall, but that aside.............what exactly are you getting at?

[DaxxKahn]

you guys lost me with the odlh/ pac and vargas/donaire comparison, irrelevant aint it?

It is relevant because KS used the Vargas fight with Donaire as an example on why he does not like him but NEVER 1 time made a comment abt DLH fighting Pacquiao when the fight was coming up that DLH was wrong...And then to say it was OK because Manny was P4P and Vargas is only top 10 in his division..even though he had lost the title 1 fight before...

Would it been OK if Donaire lost?...It still would have been him fighting a smaller man he was expected to beat but did not manage to do it...Ala DLH/Pacquiao

TBH, I'm not sure where you're going with this now..........Vargas was not top 10 that I recall, but that aside.............what exactly are you getting at?

Because you said it was different when Oscar fought a guy 2 divisions lighter, 4 inches smaller w a 6 inch reach disadvantage because he was P4P ranked and the smaller guy won....You gave excuses like that when I mentioned what the difference between DLH/PAc and Donaire/Vargas....

No wait you said it was OK because Pac was P4P ranked,,,,Then it was Ok because DLH didn;t win or else he would just have not gotten credit for the win...Not that he should not have been fighting a guy so much smaller just no credit for the win...Yet you can't forgive Donaire for the same thing...Because his guy was closer to his own size except the 5 inch reach advantage and his guy was only top 10 in his division not the P4P rankings...Read your own post mate....

BTW Vargas has had 10 fights over 110 lbs...he is not a true 105lbr...He makes that weight because he gets the advantage there

[toe2toe]

why donaire got so much flak in fighting vargas? vargas was a very late replacement (4 days before the fight) for the original opponent gerson guerrero who suffered a detached retina injury. it's not donaire really planning to fight the smaller vargas in the first place. just be thankful that we had a fight and it wasn't cancelled.

[killersheep]

I am going to have to go back and check but I don't think Tarver and Johnson were P4P when they fought Dawson...

Let me ask this...

Would you have held it against DLH if he beat Pacquiao?

Manny Jumped 2 weight classes to fight dlh LW to WW

DLH....5' 10 1/2" w 73" reach

Manny..5' 6 1/2" w 67" reach

DLH had a 4 inch height and 6 inch reach advantage

Donaire is 5' 6" w 68" reach

Vargas is 5' 6" w 63" reach

So Donaire fought a guy same height who was coming up 2 weight classes and had a 5 inch reach advantage

Oscar fought a guy 4 inches shorter and had a 6 inch reach advantage who was moving up 2 weight classes and had only 1 fight in the weight class he jumped up from

So if DLH beat Pac would that not be just as bad in fact worse because he had a much more sizable advantage...But DLH lost so it is OK?

Kind of a catch 22 no?

No not at all a catch 22 it was three weight classes for Vargas vs. Donaire (from Straw to Super Fly) and unless you are saying Vargas is the equivalent skill level of Pacquiao (#1 p4p), which he wasn't even rated by the ring at 105, and Donaire was as past it as ODLH it's apples to oranges. Certainly you will admit if ODLH would have beaten Pac, the issue of weight, reach etc. would have been brought up and Pac's loss would have been justified as a condition of those factors, of course it would put ODLH on the ring's p4p rankings not because he beat a much smaller man, but because he beat #1 p4p fighter in the world based on their own ranking system. I wasn't saying p4p rated in regards to Tarver and Johnson, I was saying Ring rated as in rated at light heavyweight Tarver and Johnson were both definately in the top 4 at light heavyweight each time Dawson fought them and the First time Dawson fought Tarver he was the #1 guy at 175.

No we can't sit a go with well Pacquiao was a better fighter and IF DLH beat Manny

Fact is it was the same situation and it did not work out the way DLH intended...

Well size part...Manny had 1 fight at LW are we going to seriously act as if he was then a full blown LW? So tbh he went from SFW to WW...3 weight classes...

What abt the size difference...DLH had a hell of a lot of size over Manny when compared to that of Donaire to Vargas...Donaire had a 5 inch reach adv he weighed 115 Vargas 114.......

So it would have been OK if Manny had lost because of DLH being so much bigger but it is a travesty because Donaire won when he had only a 5 inch reach adv...Hell how many heavies have that luxury over other heavies?

Pacquiao was a P4P ranked fighter but Vargas is a Former WBO champion and a top 10 MIN weight in the world...If he was P4P and fought Donaire it would have been different?

How?...You can not blast one guy for something he did but make excuses for another...

If a guy commits a crime and gets caught he is a criminal...If another guy commits the same crime and gets away with it...He is a criminal just one who got away with it...

DLH and Donaire are guilty of the same crime....DLH just didn't get away with it...

Yet on another note it was OK for PBF to beat up on a smaller Marquez?

Again that was different why? Because Marquez was P4P?...not so....

There are weight classes for a reason...

Why can I not consider the quality of opponent when making judgement? On a p4p list? that's ridiculous to count a win over Vargas to the same degree as Pacquiao. Vargas was never a title holder (unless you count the interim title, which is WBO code for mandatory) he won a shot at Nietes to win the actual title and he lost (I thought he won that fight but that's not the official record). Mayweather's p4p rating is based on moving up the rankings, but his spot improve after Marquez? No, but it didn't go down either because he beat the #2 p4p fighter in the world.

[DaxxKahn]

No not at all a catch 22 it was three weight classes for Vargas vs. Donaire (from Straw to Super Fly) and unless you are saying Vargas is the equivalent skill level of Pacquiao (#1 p4p), which he wasn't even rated by the ring at 105, and Donaire was as past it as ODLH it's apples to oranges. Certainly you will admit if ODLH would have beaten Pac, the issue of weight, reach etc. would have been brought up and Pac's loss would have been justified as a condition of those factors, of course it would put ODLH on the ring's p4p rankings not because he beat a much smaller man, but because he beat #1 p4p fighter in the world based on their own ranking system. I wasn't saying p4p rated in regards to Tarver and Johnson, I was saying Ring rated as in rated at light heavyweight Tarver and Johnson were both definately in the top 4 at light heavyweight each time Dawson fought them and the First time Dawson fought Tarver he was the #1 guy at 175.

No we can't sit a go with well Pacquiao was a better fighter and IF DLH beat Manny

Fact is it was the same situation and it did not work out the way DLH intended...

Well size part...Manny had 1 fight at LW are we going to seriously act as if he was then a full blown LW? So tbh he went from SFW to WW...3 weight classes...

What abt the size difference...DLH had a hell of a lot of size over Manny when compared to that of Donaire to Vargas...Donaire had a 5 inch reach adv he weighed 115 Vargas 114.......

So it would have been OK if Manny had lost because of DLH being so much bigger but it is a travesty because Donaire won when he had only a 5 inch reach adv...Hell how many heavies have that luxury over other heavies?

Pacquiao was a P4P ranked fighter but Vargas is a Former WBO champion and a top 10 MIN weight in the world...If he was P4P and fought Donaire it would have been different?

How?...You can not blast one guy for something he did but make excuses for another...

If a guy commits a crime and gets caught he is a criminal...If another guy commits the same crime and gets away with it...He is a criminal just one who got away with it...

DLH and Donaire are guilty of the same crime....DLH just didn't get away with it...

Yet on another note it was OK for PBF to beat up on a smaller Marquez?

Again that was different why? Because Marquez was P4P?...not so....

There are weight classes for a reason...

Why can I not consider the quality of opponent when making judgement? On a p4p list? that's ridiculous to count a win over Vargas to the same degree as Pacquiao. Vargas was never a title holder (unless you count the interim title, which is WBO code for mandatory) he won a shot at Nietes to win the actual title and he lost (I thought he won that fight but that's not the official record). Mayweather's p4p rating is based on moving up the rankings, but his spot improve after Marquez? No, but it didn't go down either because he beat the #2 p4p fighter in the world.

Yeah OK...That makes Zero sense...Fact is HE FOUGHT A SMALLER MAN BECAUSE IT WAS AN ADVANTAGE TO HIM...PERIOD!!!!!!

That is the topic...Again same thing as DLH and PBF...Now I can use your logic and say well it isn't Donaires fault there are no P4P ranked fighters in that weight class.....So if Vargas was P4P ranked it would have been OK?...As of the moment that is the whole basis of your argument... If that is so then this should not have even been a debate....

Then it would be OK if Marquez sat around and gained 50lbs and fought Chad Dawson because JMM is ranked Higher then him on the P4P rankings...size matters non only the P4P rankings.....

Pac, Mosley, Donaire, PBF, Hopkins, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Caballero, can only fight either A each other or B fighters who have held world titles in the past. Because the only thing that matters is P4P not size and not what title a fighter held in the past, or if a fighter is on the rise and one of these guys are champ in their division they can not fight the up and comer because he has no world champions on his resume...

This has become sad and this has become the logic of a hater...I never thought I would see bullshit like this from you KS

[killersheep]

No we can't sit a go with well Pacquiao was a better fighter and IF DLH beat Manny

Fact is it was the same situation and it did not work out the way DLH intended...

Well size part...Manny had 1 fight at LW are we going to seriously act as if he was then a full blown LW? So tbh he went from SFW to WW...3 weight classes...

What abt the size difference...DLH had a hell of a lot of size over Manny when compared to that of Donaire to Vargas...Donaire had a 5 inch reach adv he weighed 115 Vargas 114.......

So it would have been OK if Manny had lost because of DLH being so much bigger but it is a travesty because Donaire won when he had only a 5 inch reach adv...Hell how many heavies have that luxury over other heavies?

Pacquiao was a P4P ranked fighter but Vargas is a Former WBO champion and a top 10 MIN weight in the world...If he was P4P and fought Donaire it would have been different?

How?...You can not blast one guy for something he did but make excuses for another...

If a guy commits a crime and gets caught he is a criminal...If another guy commits the same crime and gets away with it...He is a criminal just one who got away with it...

DLH and Donaire are guilty of the same crime....DLH just didn't get away with it...

Yet on another note it was OK for PBF to beat up on a smaller Marquez?

Again that was different why? Because Marquez was P4P?...not so....

There are weight classes for a reason...

Why can I not consider the quality of opponent when making judgement? On a p4p list? that's ridiculous to count a win over Vargas to the same degree as Pacquiao. Vargas was never a title holder (unless you count the interim title, which is WBO code for mandatory) he won a shot at Nietes to win the actual title and he lost (I thought he won that fight but that's not the official record). Mayweather's p4p rating is based on moving up the rankings, but his spot improve after Marquez? No, but it didn't go down either because he beat the #2 p4p fighter in the world.

Yeah OK...That makes Zero sense...Fact is HE FOUGHT A SMALLER MAN BECAUSE IT WAS AN ADVANTAGE TO HIM...PERIOD!!!!!!

That is the topic...Again same thing as DLH and PBF...Now I can use your logic and say well it isn't Donaires fault there are no P4P ranked fighters in that weight class.....So if Vargas was P4P ranked it would have been OK?...As of the moment that is the whole basis of your argument... If that is so then this should not have even been a debate....

Then it would be OK if Marquez sat around and gained 50lbs and fought Chad Dawson because JMM is ranked Higher then him on the P4P rankings...size matters non only the P4P rankings.....

Pac, Mosley, Donaire, PBF, Hopkins, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Caballero, can only fight either A each other or B fighters who have held world titles in the past. Because the only thing that matters is P4P not size and not what title a fighter held in the past, or if a fighter is on the rise and one of these guys are champ in their division they can not fight the up and comer because he has no world champions on his resume...

This has become sad and this has become the logic of a hater...I never thought I would see bullshit like this from you KS

I'm surprised that this went from a debate to you getting all wound up. IF in fact Vargas was rated as a p4p fighter by THE RING, then yes it would have been a factor in THE RING's p4p ratings. You can call me a hater that's fine, but I have acknowledged Donaire has a great skill set, but his resume is lacking this is somewhere that we agreed so fundamentally we have no argument in the main point of this thread, what you have an issue with is that I hold it against Donaire for fighting a strawweight who was NEVER EVEN A TITLE HOLDER AT STRAWWEIGHT. You can call me a hater for that, but I stand by my conviction that Vargas is not a quality enough opponent to justify coming up in weight and to be used as the basis of maintaining a p4p status, let alone gain a p4p rank.

[Kev]

Why can I not consider the quality of opponent when making judgement? On a p4p list? that's ridiculous to count a win over Vargas to the same degree as Pacquiao. Vargas was never a title holder (unless you count the interim title, which is WBO code for mandatory) he won a shot at Nietes to win the actual title and he lost (I thought he won that fight but that's not the official record). Mayweather's p4p rating is based on moving up the rankings, but his spot improve after Marquez? No, but it didn't go down either because he beat the #2 p4p fighter in the world.

Yeah OK...That makes Zero sense...Fact is HE FOUGHT A SMALLER MAN BECAUSE IT WAS AN ADVANTAGE TO HIM...PERIOD!!!!!!

That is the topic...Again same thing as DLH and PBF...Now I can use your logic and say well it isn't Donaires fault there are no P4P ranked fighters in that weight class.....So if Vargas was P4P ranked it would have been OK?...As of the moment that is the whole basis of your argument... If that is so then this should not have even been a debate....

Then it would be OK if Marquez sat around and gained 50lbs and fought Chad Dawson because JMM is ranked Higher then him on the P4P rankings...size matters non only the P4P rankings.....

Pac, Mosley, Donaire, PBF, Hopkins, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Caballero, can only fight either A each other or B fighters who have held world titles in the past. Because the only thing that matters is P4P not size and not what title a fighter held in the past, or if a fighter is on the rise and one of these guys are champ in their division they can not fight the up and comer because he has no world champions on his resume...

This has become sad and this has become the logic of a hater...I never thought I would see bullshit like this from you KS

I'm surprised that this went from a debate to you getting all wound up. IF in fact Vargas was rated as a p4p fighter by THE RING, then yes it would have been a factor in THE RING's p4p ratings. You can call me a hater that's fine, but I have acknowledged Donaire has a great skill set, but his resume is lacking this is somewhere that we agreed so fundamentally we have no argument in the main point of this thread, what you have an issue with is that I hold it against Donaire for fighting a strawweight who was NEVER EVEN A TITLE HOLDER AT STRAWWEIGHT. You can call me a hater for that, but I stand by my conviction that Vargas is not a quality enough opponent to justify coming up in weight and to be used as the basis of maintaining a p4p status, let alone gain a p4p rank.

I don't understand the comparison Daxx is making. Yes both Marquez, Pacquaio and Vargas were all smaller fighters coming up in weight, but the first two were both considered p4p in the top 3 in the world unanimously and were multiple weight world champions and first ballot Hall of Famers. Manny will likely go down in history as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

Meanwhile Vargas has a record of 26-5-1, was coming off a loss and has only won 2 of his last 6 fights!

He has never even been an alphabet titlist at straweight let alone a decent opponent at flyweight.

Let's be clear, this was not Ivan Calderon moving up to face Nonito Donaire, it was more like Ian Napa moving up to fight him.

It's ridiculous that he should even be allowed to make such shitty defences yet alone climb higher up the p4p rankings on the back of this mismatch win.

[generalbulldog]

I think what Daxx is getting at is that some guys get a pass for fighting smaller men, while Donaire doesn't. He's trying to say both situations were wrong but Donaire gets shit for it. In fact with De La Hoya, Manny got shit for jumping up 2 weight divisions to fight him not the other way around.

Yes Manny is a p4p great, but did what De La Hoya do was right? Making a guy who just fought once over 130 pounds at that time to fight him? In fact quite a few people on this board expected and wanted Manny to jump up 3 weight classes so that De La Hoya would get a "fair" fight.

[killersheep]

I think what Daxx is getting at is that some guys get a pass for fighting smaller men, while Donaire doesn't. He's trying to say both situations were wrong but Donaire gets shit for it. In fact with De La Hoya, Manny got shit for jumping up 2 weight divisions to fight him not the other way around.

Yes Manny is a p4p great, but did what De La Hoya do was right? Making a guy who just fought once over 130 pounds at that time to fight him? In fact quite a few people on this board expected and wanted Manny to jump up 3 weight classes so that De La Hoya would get a "fair" fight.

There's a definitive difference here though, did Mayweather get shit for fighting a smaller Marquez? Absolutely. Would ODLH have gotten shit for beating a smaller Pacquiao? I can only speculate that yes he would, of course that's a guess on my part and that fight didn't work out that way, other factors were involved such as ODLH having to rehydrate by IV so it's kinda hard to use that fight as a reference.

Now to get back to my side of the argument Pacquiao had the hand and foot speed advantage this was recognized widely across this forum, the votes were 50/50 that he would win the detractors were stating that his weight would be 160ish come fight night when he was in fact the smaller man on the scales 149-147 if memory serves me correctly, however those that though Pacquiao would win sited his superior speed and footwork, so this is clearly a different situation than someone who has NO advantages and is not recognized for his abilities by a ranking organization.

As for Mayweather/Marquez, Mayweather was the heavy favorite and he did get shit for fighting a smaller man (as he has since he moved up to Welter) but Marquez was recognized for his overall fight tactics, grit, excellent timing and counter punching ability. I know Daxx cited the JMM/Diaz fight as an example saying Marquez was getting "beat up" and while I agree Diaz was winning the early going, watch the exchanges, Marquez was slowly and methodically breaking down Marquez precision body work and and crisp counters to the head, his uppercut was finding a home as early as the 3rd round.

Now as this reflects to Vargas, he doesn't have any of these abilities of precision punching, great footwork, counter punching ability or overall fight tactics.

All of these skills which Vargas lacked are what made Pacquiao and JMM p4p fighters when combined with the high level of competition they had faced. Thus said their abilities were proven to be effective even when moving up in weight, henceforth they were more reasonable opponents.

[DaxxKahn]

I think what Daxx is getting at is that some guys get a pass for fighting smaller men, while Donaire doesn't. He's trying to say both situations were wrong but Donaire gets shit for it. In fact with De La Hoya, Manny got shit for jumping up 2 weight divisions to fight him not the other way around.

Yes Manny is a p4p great, but did what De La Hoya do was right? Making a guy who just fought once over 130 pounds at that time to fight him? In fact quite a few people on this board expected and wanted Manny to jump up 3 weight classes so that De La Hoya would get a "fair" fight.

Thank you...Like I said all along....I don't say it is OK for Donaire to do it...Nor do I think based on his opp he deserves his rating but you can't persecute one guy and not the other....I was not speaking on a Ratings factor...Just in general...Floyd and Oscar did the same thing but just on a higher level...But I never seen the same criticism being dished out to those guys...

Hence the hater comment....

Other then that I agree with everything Both KS and Killer made on this just can't give some guys a pass but others the OK regardless of level of skill...And the size difference between Donaire and Vargas is exaggerated....They are pretty close in size...hell of a lot closer then DLH/PAC..

Plus like I said Vargas has had 10 fights at 110lbs or above...I think he has even fought as high as 113....so the making 114lbs to fight Donaire was not really a huge step in weight for him...Vargas struggles to make 105