Is Boxing a couple years away from a huge decline?

[HattonTheHammer]

I don' think there will be a huge decline but if you look at the p4p top ten now and look at it say 5-10 years ago it is a lot weaker.

pacquiao, mayweather, mosley, klitschko brothers, williams, gamboa, dawson, marquez, lopez, hosegawa, donaire, darchinyan

Is it??

[Rantcatrat]

I'm trying to think who the big stars will be in two years time and I'm guessing it will be Dawson, Ward, Gamboa.

The fact that I was once hugely in to boxing and now I don't know any of these names rings alarm bells.

I now only tend to watch the fighters you mentioned like Mayweather, Hatton, Mosely, Pac Man and so on. I've lost interest in up and coming fighters.

The problem is this the people here seem to be afraid to talk about anything to do with MMA and the impact it has had on boxing. Anytime somebody tries to start a thread comparing MMA to boxing it gets instantly stopped or sent to the MMA section out of sight. This is usually justified by saying "boxing and MMA are two completely different sports" when the reality is MMA has taken a large audience away from boxing.

I was once so into boxing I'd watch the undercard fights with as much interest as the main fight. Now I'll only watch boxing if it's a megga fight. With the UFC you don't get ridiculous mismatches, there's no bullshit waiting years for two fighters to fight like pac v Mayweather and a loss doesn't have such an impact as in boxing. You can have two great fighters fighting three times in the space it takes to make one match up in boxing. Not mention the undercard fights are just as good as the main card. I could go on all day giving reasons as to why it has adverted peoples attention away from boxing but I doubt the moderators are keen on this kind of free speech. (not all of them of course)

Yeah I think this WILL be significant. It's easy for people to say they can create stars but I don't really think that is true.

The true test of a boxing star is revealed in his PPV sales. Take away Floyd and Manny, and with Oscar long gone and no heavyweight scene to speak of who is going to sell?

I just can't see anyone on the horizon who could be a big star.

The guys who appear to be the stars of tomorrow, well let's look at them.

Chad Dawson
Andre Ward
Lucian Bute
J M Lopez
Yuriorkis Gamboa
Tim Bradley
Amir Khan
Andre Berto

Really can you see ANY of these guys being PPV stars?

I just cant' picture it.

I feel there is a real possiblity that once Manny and Floyd have departed, in probably a year to 18 months time we may not see even a 1 million buy PPV for a number of years. Where will it come from?

In the meantime MMA may well continue to grow?

I think the potential is there for UFC PPV's to smash boxing's in 2012 and 2013 unless something phenomenal happens.

Sad to say it, but being an american PPV star is very difficult these days. Chad Dawson can keep wining, but it will be difficult for him to develop a fan base like Pacquiao or Floyd because of his style. Of the fighters you mentioned, Juanma Lopez, Lucian Bute, and Amir Khan, if they are matched well, could grow into big boxing stars. Bute fills up the Bell Stadium in Montreal routinely and JuanMa has a large Puerto Rican following. Khan same. I would throw Saul "Canelo" Alvarez in there. He's 19 and already a household name among boxing fans in Mexico.

[ICB]

It may seem absurd right now to suggest this as boxing is the hottest it's been in a long time.

But look at the ages of the combatant's involved.

Hopkins will be gone in 12 months, as will Mosely almost certainly.

J M Marquez, his brother Raphael and Israel Vasquez will all likely be retired within a couple years.

I'd imagine Floyd and Manny are maybe two fights each away from retirement.

Roy Jones will be gone.

The heavyweight divsion will most likely be in a piss poor state as the challenge of David Haye will most probably have been vanquished.

I'm trying to think who the big stars will be in two years time and I'm guessing it will be Dawson, Ward, Gamboa.

Do you think boxing will go through a quiet spell, a noticable dip for a couple of years until these guys establish themselves as household names?

I'm thinking between 2011 to the end of 2012. I wonder what the state of the sport will be like then.

Who do you think the breakout stars will be, and will Manny, Floyd et al be long gone?

Jeez Bilbo your such a kill joy, but seriously i don't think anyone at the moment. Will be superstars like Pacquiao or Mayweather, we still have.

Andre Berto
Chad Dawson
Tavoris Cloud
Roman Gonzalez
Koki Kameda
Amir Khan
Timothy Bradley
Devon Alexander
Paul Williams
Lucian Bute
Andre Dirrell
Andre Ward
Kevin Mitchell
Abner Mares
Yohnny Perez
Nonito Donaire
Yuriorkis Gamboa
Juan Manuel Lopez

ETC.

But yes i agree no one in that list really looks to be superstar material.

[Kev]

It may seem absurd right now to suggest this as boxing is the hottest it's been in a long time.

But look at the ages of the combatant's involved.

Hopkins will be gone in 12 months, as will Mosely almost certainly.

J M Marquez, his brother Raphael and Israel Vasquez will all likely be retired within a couple years.

I'd imagine Floyd and Manny are maybe two fights each away from retirement.

Roy Jones will be gone.

The heavyweight divsion will most likely be in a piss poor state as the challenge of David Haye will most probably have been vanquished.

I'm trying to think who the big stars will be in two years time and I'm guessing it will be Dawson, Ward, Gamboa.

Do you think boxing will go through a quiet spell, a noticable dip for a couple of years until these guys establish themselves as household names?

I'm thinking between 2011 to the end of 2012. I wonder what the state of the sport will be like then.

Who do you think the breakout stars will be, and will Manny, Floyd et al be long gone?

Jeez Bilbo your such a kill joy, but seriously i don't think anyone at the moment. Will be superstars like Pacquiao or Mayweather, we still have.

Andre Berto
Chad Dawson
Tavoris Cloud
Roman Gonzalez
Koki Kameda
Amir Khan
Timothy Bradley
Devon Alexander
Paul Williams
Lucian Bute
Andre Dirrell
Andre Ward
Kevin Mitchell
Abner Mares
Yohnny Perez
Nonito Donaire
Yuriorkis Gamboa
Juan Manuel Lopez

ETC.

But yes i agree no one in that list really looks to be superstar material.

I just think take away Manny, Floyd and Oscar, and you'll struggle to get over 350,000 buys on virtually any card.

Haye Klitschko is probably the only big fight not involving those guys and with that probably taking place within the next year, and Floyd and Manny most likely not that much longer in the sport I can see boxing taking a bit of a commercial nose dive.

I think it's possible that in 2012 MMA PPV's will kick boxing's ass. I reckon the UFC could get 3 or 4 one million buys a year from now on with the right matchups, and outside of Manny and Floyd I can't see boxing having one.

[JazMerkin]

I don't think it is, there's a lot of possibilities.

Dawson needs to find that legit challenge to cross him over, if there was a way to build him and Cloud up that could happen.

Ward & Dirrell both have the potential to become crossover successes (maybe less so Ward with his god-talk & similarity to Mr Potato Head), as long as they fight how they have in their most recent contests.

In fact, the 160/168lbers have a load of great prospects coming through who could be big in the next two years. Daniel Jacobs, Peter Quillin, George Groves, Fernando Guerrero, James DeGale, Edwin Rodriguez, David Lemieux, Matt Korobov and that's on top of guys like Sergio Martinez and Paul Williams who could still be around and bigger fighters.

Equally, there's a number of guys coming up at Welterweight who have possible PPV potential. Berto needs the right test at the right time, against a name like Cotto or Mosley, and he could become a star. Then Mike Jones and Antwone Smith offer the possibility of growing into exciting fighters given their styles, just hope they aren't matched too early. That's ignoring the big one, Saul Alvarez, who could well become the biggest star in boxing if he's managed right.

Devon Alexander, Tim Bradley, Victor Ortiz and Amir Khan all have great potential. Alexander & Bradley should really be kept from talking too much, but they both in different ways represent the American Dream, and this is a great selling point. Ortiz also feeds into this if he can come back from the Maidana defeat, and both him and Khan are fairly good-looking kids with decent enough styles to crossover.

Lopez, Gamboa, Caballero and even Chris John, could provide the new decade's answer to the Barrera, Morales, Pacquaio and Marquez grouping of the last. At least two of those (Gamboa & Caballero) I believe have the frames and talent that could carry them up to Lightweight.

There is one more guy who I really think could become a star and that's Yuri Foreman. I initially thought that Arum was setting him up for Cotto's 3rd belt in a different weight-class, but the more I see the more I reckon that he's aiming for Foreman to become a big star. The whole Rabbi thing could play very well for him.

[Boxer4life]

there are stars on the horizon believe me, boxing will never have its decline its been around for centuries

[0james0]

Promoters make stars, simple as that.

Who is to say that in 2 years we don't see something completley unimaginable like Khan beat an over the hill Floyd? Prob will never happen, but you never know, suddenly then Khan is PFP #1 and fans around the world are waiting to see him fight Cotto who has now grown into an unstoppable force.

Anything can happen and the promoters will twist and turn to make things look rosey.

[Kev]

Promoters make stars, simple as that.

Who is to say that in 2 years we don't see something completley unimaginable like Khan beat an over the hill Floyd? Prob will never happen, but you never know, suddenly then Khan is PFP #1 and fans around the world are waiting to see him fight Cotto who has now grown into an unstoppable force.

Anything can happen and the promoters will twist and turn to make things look rosey.

I disagree. Promoters would love to make stars, and they certainly try, Jeff Lacy, Antonio Margarito spring to mind.

But these guys didn't make big PPV money.....at all.

At the end of the day a star in boxing is someone who can smash the 1 million PPV buys barrier and that's what I'm concerned boxing may not have once Floyd and Manny leave.

Guys like Berto, Dawson, Ward, Dirrell etc are all good exciting fighters, but believe me they have a long way to go before they could command 500,000 buys let alone be a star draw.

Outside of Floyd and Manny there are no stars left in boxing really. We have one big fight, Wlad vs Haye, and not a whole lot else.

I'm not talking about good, exciting, action fights, there will be plenty of those, I'm talking about fights that attract more than the hardcore boxing fans.

The Super Six tournament for example is NOT doing that, at least in the UK, where only about 300 people are even aware it's happening.

Showtime fighters just aren't stars. Look at Vazquez Marquez. A great trilogy, one of the best of all time, and yet only the hardcore boxing fans will ever heard of these two fighters because they weren't draws like Gatti and Ward.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I am concerned that once the top two fighters in the world leave, and Wlad disposes of Haye, boxing will become secondary to MMA in PPV sales and commercial revenue.

I think there is a real chance of this happening.

[boozeboxer]

I'm trying to think who the big stars will be in two years time and I'm guessing it will be Dawson, Ward, Gamboa.

The fact that I was once hugely in to boxing and now I don't know any of these names rings alarm bells.

I now only tend to watch the fighters you mentioned like Mayweather, Hatton, Mosely, Pac Man and so on. I've lost interest in up and coming fighters.

The problem is this the people here seem to be afraid to talk about anything to do with MMA and the impact it has had on boxing. Anytime somebody tries to start a thread comparing MMA to boxing it gets instantly stopped or sent to the MMA section out of sight. This is usually justified by saying "boxing and MMA are two completely different sports" when the reality is MMA has taken a large audience away from boxing.

I was once so into boxing I'd watch the undercard fights with as much interest as the main fight. Now I'll only watch boxing if it's a megga fight. With the UFC you don't get ridiculous mismatches, there's no bullshit waiting years for two fighters to fight like pac v Mayweather and a loss doesn't have such an impact as in boxing. You can have two great fighters fighting three times in the space it takes to make one match up in boxing. Not mention the undercard fights are just as good as the main card. I could go on all day giving reasons as to why it has adverted peoples attention away from boxing but I doubt the moderators are keen on this kind of free speech. (not all of them of course)

You are a muppet. You want to have a conversation about the current state of boxing when you don't know who Dawson, Ward, and Gamboa are?

I'd say bugger off to the MMA forum.

[boozeboxer]

Promoters make stars, simple as that.

Who is to say that in 2 years we don't see something completley unimaginable like Khan beat an over the hill Floyd? Prob will never happen, but you never know, suddenly then Khan is PFP #1 and fans around the world are waiting to see him fight Cotto who has now grown into an unstoppable force.

Anything can happen and the promoters will twist and turn to make things look rosey.

I disagree. Promoters would love to make stars, and they certainly try, Jeff Lacy, Antonio Margarito spring to mind.

But these guys didn't make big PPV money.....at all.

At the end of the day a star in boxing is someone who can smash the 1 million PPV buys barrier and that's what I'm concerned boxing may not have once Floyd and Manny leave.

Guys like Berto, Dawson, Ward, Dirrell etc are all good exciting fighters, but believe me they have a long way to go before they could command 500,000 buys let alone be a star draw.

Outside of Floyd and Manny there are no stars left in boxing really. We have one big fight, Wlad vs Haye, and not a whole lot else.

I'm not talking about good, exciting, action fights, there will be plenty of those, I'm talking about fights that attract more than the hardcore boxing fans.

The Super Six tournament for example is NOT doing that, at least in the UK, where only about 300 people are even aware it's happening.

Showtime fighters just aren't stars. Look at Vazquez Marquez. A great trilogy, one of the best of all time, and yet only the hardcore boxing fans will ever heard of these two fighters because they weren't draws like Gatti and Ward.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I am concerned that once the top two fighters in the world leave, and Wlad disposes of Haye, boxing will become secondary to MMA in PPV sales and commercial revenue.

I think there is a real chance of this happening.

Uncle Bob knew that Tony Margarito had very limited appeal as an aging fighter who did not speak english. In fact, I think he did a helluva job with what he had.

[boozeboxer]

Promoters make stars, simple as that.

Who is to say that in 2 years we don't see something completley unimaginable like Khan beat an over the hill Floyd? Prob will never happen, but you never know, suddenly then Khan is PFP #1 and fans around the world are waiting to see him fight Cotto who has now grown into an unstoppable force.

Anything can happen and the promoters will twist and turn to make things look rosey.

I disagree. Promoters would love to make stars, and they certainly try, Jeff Lacy, Antonio Margarito spring to mind.

But these guys didn't make big PPV money.....at all.

At the end of the day a star in boxing is someone who can smash the 1 million PPV buys barrier and that's what I'm concerned boxing may not have once Floyd and Manny leave.

Guys like Berto, Dawson, Ward, Dirrell etc are all good exciting fighters, but believe me they have a long way to go before they could command 500,000 buys let alone be a star draw.

Outside of Floyd and Manny there are no stars left in boxing really. We have one big fight, Wlad vs Haye, and not a whole lot else.

I'm not talking about good, exciting, action fights, there will be plenty of those, I'm talking about fights that attract more than the hardcore boxing fans.

The Super Six tournament for example is NOT doing that, at least in the UK, where only about 300 people are even aware it's happening.

Showtime fighters just aren't stars. Look at Vazquez Marquez. A great trilogy, one of the best of all time, and yet only the hardcore boxing fans will ever heard of these two fighters because they weren't draws like Gatti and Ward.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I am concerned that once the top two fighters in the world leave, and Wlad disposes of Haye, boxing will become secondary to MMA in PPV sales and commercial revenue.

I think there is a real chance of this happening.

Why does boxing still have a stronghold then on PPV sales? Because the people that like MMA don't have the money to plop down 50 on a fight. Demographically, by the numbers I think they are young uneducated people.

The MMA people are trying to figure out a way to get more of this money, but they are competing with landlords, tattoo shops, and value meals.

[Scrap]

The 1st time I heard this was 50 years ago, nothing changes

[Kev]

Promoters make stars, simple as that.

Who is to say that in 2 years we don't see something completley unimaginable like Khan beat an over the hill Floyd? Prob will never happen, but you never know, suddenly then Khan is PFP #1 and fans around the world are waiting to see him fight Cotto who has now grown into an unstoppable force.

Anything can happen and the promoters will twist and turn to make things look rosey.

I disagree. Promoters would love to make stars, and they certainly try, Jeff Lacy, Antonio Margarito spring to mind.

But these guys didn't make big PPV money.....at all.

At the end of the day a star in boxing is someone who can smash the 1 million PPV buys barrier and that's what I'm concerned boxing may not have once Floyd and Manny leave.

Guys like Berto, Dawson, Ward, Dirrell etc are all good exciting fighters, but believe me they have a long way to go before they could command 500,000 buys let alone be a star draw.

Outside of Floyd and Manny there are no stars left in boxing really. We have one big fight, Wlad vs Haye, and not a whole lot else.

I'm not talking about good, exciting, action fights, there will be plenty of those, I'm talking about fights that attract more than the hardcore boxing fans.

The Super Six tournament for example is NOT doing that, at least in the UK, where only about 300 people are even aware it's happening.

Showtime fighters just aren't stars. Look at Vazquez Marquez. A great trilogy, one of the best of all time, and yet only the hardcore boxing fans will ever heard of these two fighters because they weren't draws like Gatti and Ward.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I am concerned that once the top two fighters in the world leave, and Wlad disposes of Haye, boxing will become secondary to MMA in PPV sales and commercial revenue.

I think there is a real chance of this happening.

Why does boxing still have a stronghold then on PPV sales? Because the people that like MMA don't have the money to plop down 50 on a fight. Demographically, by the numbers I think they are young uneducated people.

The MMA people are trying to figure out a way to get more of this money, but they are competing with landlords, tattoo shops, and value meals.

I think the UFC is already generating more PPV revenue annually than HBO now. UFC 100 took 1.5 million buys which makes it the 5th most succesful PPV ever behind the likes of Mayweather De La Hoya and Tyson Lewis.

They are consistently getting in the high hundred thousands for every UFC show, and that's whilst boxing still has Manny and Floyd.

My guess is that once those two leave the big UFC stars will be the stars of combat sports in general.

It is a very real possiblity.

And I know peoplesay boxing will always be number 1, but it hasn't had to compete with MMA until now.

I do think it's possible (not necessarily likely) that MMA will take over as the preferred contact combat sport over the next few years, unless boxing can get some fighters with real pulling power.

[albsur2006]

Well Floyd, took a long time to become the star he is now. Oscar De La Hoya took much less time because of his good looks, gold medal, and Mexican following. But the one thing that Floyd ABSOLUTELY has right is personality. I'm not saying that he became a star the honorable way like maybe Pacquiao did but Pacquiao's style will allow him to be a big attraction. Tell me how Floyd, who's style isn't the most crowd pleasing, is able to generate so much interest? It's the aura of invincibility, it's the swagger. Boxers must realize this. It's the same reason why Shane Mosley ruined his earning potential and his importance in boxing. Shane Mosley was on top of the world after beating Oscar the first time, the guy was good looking and fun to watch. Instead of Shane taking a couple decent fights to look really good and build up profile but Shane thought like a fighter and took Winky Wright's challenge. I mean that's all great that he fought Winky Wright but that's a dumba$$ business decision. He should have let that fact that you didn't take the Winky fight right away or "ducked" the fight get the media interested; let them start finding out more about Winky and also build up his profile so that when you DO fight him, it's a bigger fight. But Shane Mosley didn't get it. And that basically amounted to a fight that did horrible business and that nobody outside of boxing fans cared about. Just because you don't take a fight doesn't mean you're scared, sometimes, you have to think about business. That's why I hope the following fighters are smart about their career and develop their star power. Doing that will help keep boxing alive:

Andre Ward: Great fighter, good to watch, nice guy, undefeated, not sure if he has star quality though. Only drawback is that he's kinda boring.

James Kirkland (after he gets out): Vicious fighting style, great backstory, crazy personality, undefeated, knockout puncher, he's like a mini-Tyson that could captivate the public. Only drawback is that he's not at a heavier weight. He could be a HUGE star in the future.

Amir Khan - Flashy, already seems to get the point that it's about having a CAREER and not just rushing into big fights. Has P4P skills, good size, and great speed. Already a huge star overseas. Only drawback is 1st round KO loss detracts from aura of invincibility. He should be a star as long as he doesn't get knocked out again.

JuanMa Lopez - Good Puerto Rican following. Vibrant and outgoing personality. Will talk a little trash. P4P boxing skills, great power, good technique. Undefeated. Only drawback is that he's a small guy but if he finds his way to lightweight undefeated he'll be huge.

Devon Alexander - Great boxer. Very slick boxer. Not the greatest to watch. Will be hard to beat. Personality will get him far. Undefeated. Cocky guy. American's love to HATE ultra talented yet cocky athletes. People will eventually pay to see him lose a la Floyd. Only drawback is his fighting style.

Andre Berto - Already has a good following in Florida. Great power. Great makeup. Sometimes great to watch. Undefeated. Already champion. Good personality. He can be what Shane Mosley should have been. Only drawback is that he looks like he'll outgrow 147 and that may be to his detriment because he's not big enough to be at 154 and 160 I think.

Saul Alvarez - Apparently a big star in Mexico already. Quirkish looks gives people something to talk about. Skills leave a little bit to be desired but he's still young. He looks like he really could become something like Gatti. Great to watch and vulnerable yet finds a way to win. Only drawback is that he looks like he doesn't have THAT much upside as a boxer.

David Haye - Heavyweight that fights with real passion and heart. Amazing power, great skills, great personality. Able to mix it up in the ring and out of it. Already a big star overseas. His fights aren't the greatest to watch all the time but he keeps you interested because he can land a huge punch at any moment. Only drawback is that he may be chinny and also he might get KTFO by one of the Klitschkos.

There a good amount more that I can name too. Boxing will be fine if their handlers handle them right. If it was up to boxing fans, fights would happen the minute we want to see them. We would blow our loads too early all the time. Sometimes, it's good to let things build.

[kheserthorpe]

Why does boxing still have a stronghold then on PPV sales? Because the people that like MMA don't have the money to plop down 50 on a fight. Demographically, by the numbers I think they are young uneducated people.

The MMA people are trying to figure out a way to get more of this money, but they are competing with landlords, tattoo shops, and value meals.

Top 10 PPV buy rates, 2009

1. UFC 100: Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, July 11, 1.6 million

2. Boxing: Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Cotto, Nov. 14, 1.25 million

3. Boxing: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Juan Manuel Marquez, Sept. 19, 1.05 millon

4. UFC 94: Georges St. Pierre vs. B.J. Penn, Jan. 31, 920,000 buys

5. UFC 101: Penn vs. Kenny Florian/Anderson Silva vs. Forrest Griffin, Aug. 8, 850,000

6. Boxing: Pacquiao vs. Ricky Hatton, May 2, 825,000

7t. UFC 107: Penn vs. Diego Sanchez, Dec. 12, 650,000

7t. UFC 97: Silva vs. Thales Leites/Chuck Liddell vs. Mauricio Rua, April 18, 650,000

9. UFC 98: Lyoto Machida vs. Rashad Evans/Matt Hughes vs. Matt Serra, May 23, 635,000

10. Wrestling: WWE WrestleMania 25, April 5, 582,000 buys



Pac vs. Mayweather would outsell anything the UFC puts together, but the UFC is putting up consistent solid PPV numbers.

That said, that is 'UFC' _not_ MMA. MMA events by other promoters featuring top fighters haven't pulled anywhere near these numbers.

I don't think its that boxing is losing popularity to MMA so much as it is that the single promoter 'brand name' model is a lot easier to sell to casual fans. There are things to like and dislike, but its easier for casual fans to simply say 'oh, its UFC'. Much like people can be a casual fan of the NFL, the NBA, NASCAR while only knowing a few participants. People who like MMA can easily watch UFC ppvs, which promote following UFC PPVs, and showcase on the card up and coming UFC sponsored fighters who may be fighting in future title bouts, etc. By contrast, one of my co-workers likes boxing, started taking lessons, his favourite fighter is PWill and I have to let him know when he's fighting because he wouldn't know otherwise.

Being aware of up and coming boxers takes considerable effort relative to learning about up and coming MMA fighters.