Israel at it again

[CFH]

Jesus Christ man, I don't think we needs pictures of dead and badly wounded people to understand that what's going on it fucked up.

I don't agree. I don't think people have a clue what's going on over there every day.

When people read that one woman was shot in the face and that two girls were killed, they have a pretty good idea of what's going on. Perhaps the general public does not, but no one participating in this thread doesn't know what violence looks like.

Those pictures are only anecdotal evidence anyways. I'm sure you could find images of dead Israeli soldiers and civilians and of Arab's doing things comparable to what those Jewish kids are doing in the other picture. It adds very little to the argument IMO, and it drives people like myself away from these types of discussions. Maybe other people feel differently or that I'm a pussy or whatever, but that is my opinion. And for the record, I firmly sympathize with the Palestinians.

In which western newspaper did you read that two girls were killed and one was shot in the face?

I haven't read any newspapers for a while, I've been busy with school. However, people are killed in Gaza, and in Israel, on a fairly regular basis and it's common knowledge. Furthermore, I think the majority of people realize that the Israeli's do the bulk of the killing. I don't find it all that surprising that such things would often get little or no attention in western papers (if that is the case), it's a regular occurance. Do you expect the killing of every person in arguably the world's most volatile region to heavily covered by all media outlets? When exceptional things occur, like the raid on the ship in which the casualties were widely reported, it is more heavily covered.

[CFH]

The more I think about it Kirkland, the more I think you do make a fair point. It's important that visual representations about what the Israeli's are doing in Gaza become publically available, and the western press certainly can't be counted on to be in any way objective (nor can any other press, but that is a different discussion entirely).

I just hate seeing those kinds of picture. I believe I have a fair understanding of what goes on there, so I find myself repulsed by the images. It drives me away from discussions like this one, discussions which I feel passionately about and which I want to participate in, but I understand the most people probably don't feel that way and it is important that people see what is going on.

[Kirkland Laing]

The more I think about it Kirkland, the more I think you do make a fair point. It's important that visual representations about what the Israeli's are doing in Gaza become publically available, and the western press certainly can't be counted on to be in any way objective (nor can any other press, but that is a different discussion entirely).

I just hate seeing those kinds of picture. I believe I have a fair understanding of what goes on there, so I find myself repulsed by the images. It drives me away from discussions like this one, discussions which I feel passionately about and which I want to participate in, but I understand the most people probably don't feel that way and it is important that people see what is going on.

There is unbelievable pro-Israel censorship in western media. It's like the Israeli press office is running the newsdesks of every major media outlet. Any possible video/photographs (and it's images which bring this shit home to people, especially in wartime) that would make people sympathetic to Israel are published everywhere and unending stuff that would make people furious with Israel, rows of dead children, Palestinian kids laid out dead in a line never make it into the papers but you're guaranteed to see pictures of Israeli kids crying in a bomb shelter every single time Israel blow the shit out of Gaza, (at least once a year for over a decade now).

Imagine if the Iranians had boarded a humanitarian aid convoy of ships in international waters -- who were bringing aid to 1.5 million people Iran had been imprisoning and starving illegally for three years -- and killed nine people, then blamed the peace convoy people for "ambushing" the team of heavily armed Iranian commandos sent a hundred miles to take over the ships. Imagine the different press coverage there'd be if that was the case, or if North Korea had done it to a convoy bringing aid to North Koreans.




This girl died of a heart attack when Israel bombed the apartment building next to hers in Gaza in January 2009, one of nearly a thouand dead children in a giant six-week-long massacre that Israel timed to take advantage of the last days in power of the outgoing US president who never ever criticised them or told them to restrain themselves in eight years.

[Kev]

Guys have you actually seen the video of the landing?

It seems to me that the Israelis HAD to open fire else they would have been killed. Look at this video here as the soldiers borded the ship.

They literally get set upon and attacked with knives, poles, what looks like swords and all sorts.

One soldier gets thrown overboard, I mean it's insane.

I can't think of a single country in the world who would A) let an armada of ships through a blockade to reach the nation they are blockading, and B) who wouldn't open fire when their troops were being attacked and killed.

The whole incident is a a tragic mess but it's entirely the activists own doing in my opinion. They were invited to dock and for the Israeli's to inspect the cargo and then to have the cargo sent on to Gaza, minus things like concrete and other materials that could be used by Hamas to construct military installations etc.

They not only refused this but when they were confronted on the seas heading to Gaza the main ship (with hundreds of people on board) refused to stop and carried on going. Of course it was going to get boarded, and when they attacked the troops landing of course they were going to be attacked.

I don't think the Israeli's have a case to answer for in all honesty. They were forced into that position.

My guess is you will all disagree with me, but will do it by trying to change tack and claim the blockade is illegal. Whatever your stance on that it IS in effect and has been for a couple years. No other nation in the world would act differently when their troops were under fire imo.

Here's the video.

BBC News - Israeli convoy raid: What went wrong?

[Kev]

Watching that video again I just think it's farcical to label these activists as innocent peaceful aid workers

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing. They were clearly looking for a conflict. You can see them storming the soldiers and seemingly beating and clubbing one, to what could have been death had not the Israelis opened fire.

It's somewhat scandalous that this is world news, whereas the American helicopter gunship massacred of a few people innocently walking the streets of Baghdad as put up by Ono last month gets not a mention in the world's news.

I remember a few years ago when Australia boarded and forced a boat of refugees heading for its waters to turn back as they dont want immigrants in their country.

Had their troops been met with this resistance they woull have opened fire too.

[Kirkland Laing]

Guys have you actually seen the video of the landing?

It seems to me that the Israelis HAD to open fire else they would have been killed. Look at this video here as the soldiers borded the ship.

They literally get set upon and attacked with knives, poles, what looks like swords and all sorts.

One soldier gets thrown overboard, I mean it's insane.

I can't think of a single country in the world who would A) let an armada of ships through a blockade to reach the nation they are blockading, and B) who wouldn't open fire when their troops were being attacked and killed.

The whole incident is a a tragic mess but it's entirely the activists own doing in my opinion. They were invited to dock and for the Israeli's to inspect the cargo and then to have the cargo sent on to Gaza, minus things like concrete and other materials that could be used by Hamas to construct military installations etc.

They not only refused this but when they were confronted on the seas heading to Gaza the main ship (with hundreds of people on board) refused to stop and carried on going. Of course it was going to get boarded, and when they attacked the troops landing of course they were going to be attacked.

I don't think the Israeli's have a case to answer for in all honesty. They were forced into that position.

My guess is you will all disagree with me, but will do it by trying to change tack and claim the blockade is illegal. Whatever your stance on that it IS in effect and has been for a couple years. No other nation in the world would act differently when their troops were under fire imo.

Here's the video.

BBC News - Israeli convoy raid: What went wrong?

You're watching a one minute clip of an operation that took a couple of hours. According to broadcasts from the boat just before the operation (when Israel cut all phones, internet, etc.) Israel were firing live rounds at the boat before they even boarded it. Humanitarian activists released today speak of Israeli commandos opening fire as soon as they hit the ground, even shooting sleeping people and of no resistance from the peace convoy people until they were actually coming under fire. It would be nice to see the video from the beginning, also the various videos filmed by the peace people that Israel have confiscated.

From a seriously pro-Israel outlet :

More than 600 activists arrested after Monday’s raid in international waters remained in custody in southern Israel, although an Israeli police spokesman said that about 45 people were being deported. Some of those activists offered descriptions of the raid that differed sharply with accounts provided by Israel, raising more questions about precisely what happened when Israeli commandos descended on the convoy’s lead ship early Monday morning.....

Reuters reported that Israel was holding hundreds of activists incommunicado in and around the port city of Ashdod, refusing to permit journalists access to witnesses who might contradict Israel's version of events.

Israel Faces Pressure on Gaza After Raid - NYTimes.com

So Israel have done nothing wrong and their side of the story is entirely accurate but they've confiscated all video and photographs other than theirs and won't allow journalists access to over 600 people they've illegally kidnapped and are holding without charge. Again, imagine if Iran was doing this.


Remember what happened in Gaza? They made all sorts of claims which they later admitted were lies. They didn't use white phosphorous, didn't deliberately fire at the UN vbuilding, didn't deliberately fire at civilian housing blocks, didn't use Palestinians as human shields, etc. etc. All of which turned out to be lies which they later admitted to when it was all long over and would get zero media coverage.

[Kirkland Laing]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

[Kev]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

About as well reasoned a response as I could expect really.

[CFH]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

[Gandalf]

There was no need to board the boat at that point. They were a long way from the coast and the waters are not those of Israel. Boarding that ship was illegal. Too right if you are being assaulted illegally by the military arm of a dubious state that you will try and defend yourself. The Israel's backed by helicopters, planes, armour and advanced weaponry knew exactly what they were doing and chose to affront a group of people who sought nothing more than to gain access to a sovereign and abused nation. The fact that Israel continues to blockade illegally and act like pirates is the problem here.

Why not let the ship dock, search the aid packages and then send the aid workers back on their merry way? Was that not too much to ask? It is not a crime to want to dock in Gaza, despite what the Israeli's wants us to think. And as for stealing all of the film and locking them all up? That's outrageous. Israel has essentially kidnapped and gagged them.

Israel has over the past couple of years been on a slippery slope and gradually more and more people are beginning to sit up and take notice. It is losing allies one by one and continues to infect the region with poision. These are precarious and dangerous times for the state of Israel.

[Kev]

There was no need to board the boat at that point. They were a long way from the coast and the waters are not those of Israel. Boarding that ship was illegal. Too right if you are being assaulted illegally by the military arm of a dubious state that you will try and defend yourself. The Israel's backed by helicopters, planes, armour and advanced weaponry knew exactly what they were doing and chose to affront a group of people who sought nothing more than to gain access to a sovereign and abused nation. The fact that Israel continues to blockade illegally and act like pirates is the problem here.

Why not let the ship dock, search the aid packages and then send the aid workers back on their merry way? Was that not too much to ask? It is not a crime to want to dock in Gaza, despite what the Israeli's wants us to think. And as for stealing all of the film and locking them all up? That's outrageous. Israel has essentially kidnapped and gagged them.

Israel has over the past couple of years been on a slippery slope and gradually more and more people are beginning to sit up and take notice. It is losing allies one by one and continues to infect the region with poision. These are precarious and dangerous times for the state of Israel.

You can't be serious? I would imagine letting them dock in Gaza where they would be greeted by thousands of angry Palestinians would be an invitation to an even bigger bloodbath.

There is no question the landing was bungled to say the least but it wasn't the fault of the soldiers on the ground, but rather the commnanders who sent them into a situation that they completely misread.

I also saw on the news site that in 1947 British troops boarded a Jewish refugee boat to stop them reaching Israel and shot dead three resisters. We also gassed the curds under Churchill as well of course.

These kind of incidents do happen and it's not necessarily because a group of soldiers are trigger happy. Conflicts can be hard to control.

[Gandalf]

There was no need to board the boat at that point. They were a long way from the coast and the waters are not those of Israel. Boarding that ship was illegal. Too right if you are being assaulted illegally by the military arm of a dubious state that you will try and defend yourself. The Israel's backed by helicopters, planes, armour and advanced weaponry knew exactly what they were doing and chose to affront a group of people who sought nothing more than to gain access to a sovereign and abused nation. The fact that Israel continues to blockade illegally and act like pirates is the problem here.

Why not let the ship dock, search the aid packages and then send the aid workers back on their merry way? Was that not too much to ask? It is not a crime to want to dock in Gaza, despite what the Israeli's wants us to think. And as for stealing all of the film and locking them all up? That's outrageous. Israel has essentially kidnapped and gagged them.

Israel has over the past couple of years been on a slippery slope and gradually more and more people are beginning to sit up and take notice. It is losing allies one by one and continues to infect the region with poision. These are precarious and dangerous times for the state of Israel.

You can't be serious? I would imagine letting them dock in Gaza where they would be greeted by thousands of angry Palestinians would be an invitation to an even bigger bloodbath.

There is no question the landing was bungled to say the least but it wasn't the fault of the soldiers on the ground, but rather the commnanders who sent them into a situation that they completely misread.

I also saw on the news site that in 1947 British troops boarded a Jewish refugee boat to stop them reaching Israel and shot dead three resisters. We also gassed the curds under Churchill as well of course.

These kind of incidents do happen and it's not necessarily because a group of soldiers are trigger happy. Conflicts can be hard to control.

I think the Gazan people would have appreciated the flotilla being allowed to dock and unload. They already had welcoming parties set up, this could have been a positive gesture. Israel has had every opportunity to try and foster improved relations, everyone agrees that a two state solution is the only solution, but Israel does everything it can and at every opportunity to foster resentment and usually by killing people who have done nothing wrong and denying rights to indigenous people. This was the same old story, just this time it wasn't actual Palestinian's getting the chop.

[Kirkland Laing]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

About as well reasoned a response as I could expect really.

You're just rrying to get a reaction, you don't have a clue about the whole thing. I answered a previous post of yours a day ago and you ran away from answering it. Then you made another attempt to troll for a reaction yesterday and got one. Go and fuck yourself you dwarfish cripple.

[Kirkland Laing]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

He was trolling for a reaction like I already explained. He can answer my original reply to his first post anytime now.

[Kev]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

He was trolling for a reaction like I already explained. He can answer my original reply to his first post anytime now.

So disagreeing with you is being a troll? Interesting.

I'm just pointing out there are two sides to every story. Before the blockade Hammas was bombing Israel and killing its citizens every single day. They were even sending in child suicide bombers. No other country on earth would allow terrorists to do that without retaliation and so Israel went into Gaza and sought to remove the threat.

The blockade was set up to try and prevent Hamas from rebuilding. It is a legitmate concern.

I'm not saying that Israel didn't fuck this up majorly but as it usually the case in life it is not a onesided argument. No nation on earth has greater reason to be paranoid and suspicious of their neighbours than Israel considering their history, both recent as well and historically. As a tiny nation surrounded by enemies on every side they obviously come down hard on attackers, in order to deter others from making similar threats.

It is a tragic situation all around.