So....is war in the Middle East imminent?

[Nameless]

It doesn't matter, these are awful people and who gives a fuck about the terror suspects. We could have killed Bin Laden on day 1, we would still have a reason to get rid of the fucking taliban. They are awful. I just read today they executed a 7 year old boy accusing him of being a spy. Whether we gave them support in the past or not, is anyone here actually against fighting the Taliban?

Taliban Kill, Hang 7-Year-Old Boy as Government Spy

Who said they were friendly guys? Is the 7 years old murder really a surprise? Nope. We all know they things like that. However, how is it ok to loyally support them all gun ho till the Afghan war, even inviting them to Washington to promote their image and then deciding they were bad guys because they didn't obey their master? Nobody gave a fuck about peoples over there in Washington because they financed their most radical leaders and wouldn't it be for the Caspian sea petrol, they would have never landed a boot over there to "hunt Bin Laden". There are regimes as bad in Africa, notably Somalia where pirates stole more than 100 millions of material a year but they do not land in there because there ain't money to do. Same for North Korea which is much more frightening than a handful of bearded man riding 1970 motorcycles and drinking tea in some caves. The problem now is that they created a gigantic havok and can't afford to lose face, especially because of the tensions everywhere else make the region too dangerous. Talibans are disgusting peoples but you're very naive if you think that the US landed there to "save their peoples". If the Talibans would have accepted the Caspian Sea pipe, they would rule with iron hands and not even a single G.I would have land over there, at best they would condone their actions at the UN but they would not have removed them from power.

So you agree with me then that we must all be very naieve to believe that the furore against Israel now is all to do with concern for the plight of the Gazan people. You just explained excellently how the world cares nothing for the plight of others except when it suits their own ends, and thus in the case of Gaza, it is the new propaganda tool to exploit the Israeli's with. They are just pawns in an anti semitic attack. The Arab world would like to have another go at the six day war, but obviously with different results this time, and the first stage is to win the war of public opinion.

Excellent post Nameless, I agree with everything you said

Thanks for agreeing. However, I do not agree with your logic:

More than 200 motions have voted against Israel, many for war crimes at the UN but the Us systematically used their veto to block the whole deal. When 200 motions have been voted, it shows people care.

The Afghan case is absolutely different from Palestine who gets its land stolen, their water blocked and the simplest of material blocked from getting in. Afghan's borders aren't in cause in the case that interests us.

When you send 10 000 tons of medical help to a place where there is not a dime to be made (compared to billions with the pipeline) and that you challenge one very dangerous Army in Tsahal, it must be because somehow, you care about these peoples to take such risks.

Also, Comparatively to Afghanistan where the Us did put Hamid Karzai, an ex Texaco consultant (or Chevron, anyway one of these) to the head of the country to serve their interests, Israel did elect themselves their very own government which is not an ex consultant who works for the American oil interests to replace the Talibans, the butchers, the same U.S did put before to serve these same interests but had to be removed because they weren't docile.

Do not lose from sight that the US gag balled the UN because Israel, despite their incessant massacres and illegal land stealing, were serving their interests by being a threat to the "muslim" world.

2 very different situations Mr BAggins, I tell ya but thanks for agreeing with me on the Afghan case

[Kev]

It doesn't matter, these are awful people and who gives a fuck about the terror suspects. We could have killed Bin Laden on day 1, we would still have a reason to get rid of the fucking taliban. They are awful. I just read today they executed a 7 year old boy accusing him of being a spy. Whether we gave them support in the past or not, is anyone here actually against fighting the Taliban?

Taliban Kill, Hang 7-Year-Old Boy as Government Spy

Who said they were friendly guys? Is the 7 years old murder really a surprise? Nope. We all know they things like that. However, how is it ok to loyally support them all gun ho till the Afghan war, even inviting them to Washington to promote their image and then deciding they were bad guys because they didn't obey their master? Nobody gave a fuck about peoples over there in Washington because they financed their most radical leaders and wouldn't it be for the Caspian sea petrol, they would have never landed a boot over there to "hunt Bin Laden". There are regimes as bad in Africa, notably Somalia where pirates stole more than 100 millions of material a year but they do not land in there because there ain't money to do. Same for North Korea which is much more frightening than a handful of bearded man riding 1970 motorcycles and drinking tea in some caves. The problem now is that they created a gigantic havok and can't afford to lose face, especially because of the tensions everywhere else make the region too dangerous. Talibans are disgusting peoples but you're very naive if you think that the US landed there to "save their peoples". If the Talibans would have accepted the Caspian Sea pipe, they would rule with iron hands and not even a single G.I would have land over there, at best they would condone their actions at the UN but they would not have removed them from power.

So you agree with me then that we must all be very naieve to believe that the furore against Israel now is all to do with concern for the plight of the Gazan people. You just explained excellently how the world cares nothing for the plight of others except when it suits their own ends, and thus in the case of Gaza, it is the new propaganda tool to exploit the Israeli's with. They are just pawns in an anti semitic attack. The Arab world would like to have another go at the six day war, but obviously with different results this time, and the first stage is to win the war of public opinion.

Excellent post Nameless, I agree with everything you said

Thanks for agreeing. However, I do not agree with your logic:

More than 200 motions have voted against Israel, many for war crimes at the UN but the Us systematically used their veto to block the whole deal. When 200 motions have been voted, it shows people care.

The Afghan case is absolutely different from Palestine who gets its land stolen, their water blocked and the simplest of material blocked from getting in. Afghan's borders aren't in cause in the case that interests us.

When you send 10 000 tons of medical help to a place where there is not a dime to be made (compared to billions with the pipeline) and that you challenge one very dangerous Army in Tsahal, it must be because somehow, you care about these peoples to take such risks.

Also, Comparatively to Afghanistan where the Us did put Hamid Karzai, an ex Texaco consultant (or Chevron, anyway one of these) to the head of the country to serve their interests, Israel did elect themselves their very own government which is not an ex consultant who works for the American oil interests.

2 very different situations Mr BAggins, I tell ya but thanks for agreeing with me on the Afghan case

To be fair to Isreal its enemies declare everything it does to be a war crime. There are so many claims made regarding their 'ethnic cleansing' and 'genocide' which create the popular opinion that they are commiting atrocities but none of them bear up to scrutiny.

They have been subject to some terrible propaganda and outright lies against them.

Please comment on my points below and tell me where you disagree.

Firstly, the idea that they are being starved to death is simply not bourne out. The Palestinian population has actually increased, from 240,000 in 1950 to 1.5 million today.

Secondly when Israel took over control of Gaza in 1967 the average life expectancy of a Palestinaian was 48 years. Now despite being brutally mistreated their life expectanies have INCREASED to 72 years, making them the only persecuted people's in history to have seen their health so drastically improve under such intolerable conditions.

Interestingly infant mortality in Palestine since the Jews took over has dropped from 100 per 1000 live births to 23 per 1000 live births.

Despite your claims to drinking water being withheld, they actually have far more access now than they didn prior to 1967. Also illiteracy was rampant prior to 1967 whereas now, again under Israeli control illiteracy has been almost wiped out amongst those born after 1967.

These statistical facts obviously don't help the anti-Israeli cause however and so never get mentioned.

Also there have been numerous false allegations made against Israel, which have been proven false, yet still the idea still persist.

The 2002 massacre of hundred of Palestiniants in Jenin for example has since been exposed as a total fabrication. The bombing of two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances in 2006, which received worldwide condemnation was later found to be a hoax as well yet only the condemnation of Israel is ever publicised. When events are proven to be not as desrcibed, no retraction of Isreal's 'wrong doing' is made thus the myth of Jewis aggression persists in the minds of the public.

The fake killing of the 12 year old Palestinian Mohammed al-Dura in 2000 is another atrocity commited against Israel. The whole event was staged, he wasn't even dead but was killed later by the Arabs to propogate their atrocity claims. It was an evil, inhumane attempt to besmirch the Israeli reputation.

There have been a long list of false claims and allegations made against Israel, hardly any of which stand up to scrutiny, henced why they are never scrutinised.

[Kev]

Here's an interesting link to health and literacy statistics in the Middle East

CAMERA: Will Massive Infusions of Aid Rescue the Palestinian Economy?

Amazingly these cruelly persecuted people living in intolerable conditions have the second highest life expectancy, the second lowest infant mortality rate and the highest literacy rates in the entire Arab world.

Also one of the highest primary school attendance rates.

Why does THIS never get mentioned. You would think from the media that these people were living in refugee campst and dying daily from plague and famine, and yet their standard of living is better than ANY Arab nation other than Syria.

Interesting.......

[Kirkland Laing]

JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.
Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.
Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza.
However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.




Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security | McClatchy


Economic warfare. Lovely. So it's not about weapons, it's all about the Binyamins.




A 2010 World Health Organization report stated that "chronic malnutrition in the Gaza Strip has risen over the past few years and has now reached 10.2%. Micronutrient deficiencies among children and women have reached levels that are of concern." According to UN OCHA:"Over 60 percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and wellbeing of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity.



Israel has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system.Amnesty International reports that 90-95 percent of the drinking water in Gaza is contaminated and unfit for consumption. The United Nations even found that bottled water in Gaza contained contaminants, likely due to the plastic bottles recycled in dysfunctional factories. The lack of sufficient power for desalination and sewage facilities results in significant amounts of sewage seeping into Gaza's costal aquifer--the main source of water for the people of Gaza.



etc. etc.


What exactly is the blockade of Gaza? by Yousef Munayyer | The Middle East Channel

[amat]

I'm not stupid Nameless and I don't need an article from the National Socialist Review to tell me about how we filtered weapons into Afghanistan to fight the commies. The guy who wrote it conveniently ignores the fact that the Russians were slaughtering the Afghans to get their pipeline to the sea, it was either us or them.

The article could have been deduced to the last paragraph, we fucked up in ignoring Afghanistan after the Russians retreated but that's the only way we we fucked up there. We needed someone to fight the Russians and only those people were willing to step up for us.

[Nameless]

I'm not stupid Nameless and I don't need an article from the National Socialist Review to tell me about how we filtered weapons into Afghanistan to fight the commies. The guy who wrote it conveniently ignores the fact that the Russians were slaughtering the Afghans to get their pipeline to the sea, it was either us or them.

The article could have been deduced to the last paragraph, we fucked up in ignoring Afghanistan after the Russians retreated but that's the only way we we fucked up there. We needed someone to fight the Russians and only those people were willing to step up for us.

That's the thing. US didn't ignore them. They helped Talibans to stay in place and even invited them to Washington to promote their image as an allied regime. They knew what they were all about but it was very ok for them, as long as they deliver.

"In March 2001, several Taliban officials, including Sayed Rahmattulah Hashimi, Mullah Omar's personal advisor, were invited to Washington by their U.S. lobbyist, Leila Helms, the niece of former CIA Director Richard Helms. The agenda included discussions of extraditing bin Laden as well as facilitating American companies' access to oil reserves in central Asia. The delegation met with representatives of the Directorate of Central Intelligence (DCI) and the Bureau of Intelligence and Research of the State Department.

This visit provoked concern and criticism in Washington over how Hashimi obtained a visa, a plane ticket, security clearance and access to American institutions -- including the State Department and the National Security Council -- despite travel restrictions on Taliban leadership imposed by U.N. sanctions (the official answer was that Hashimi fell below the rank of senior official covered by the sanctions.)"

US - Taliban Oil pipeline negotiations. - Democratic Underground

[Nameless]

Please comment on my points below and tell me where you disagree.

Firstly, the idea that they are being starved to death is simply not bourne out. The Palestinian population has actually increased, from 240,000 in 1950 to 1.5 million today.

Even in Africa where they starve to death population are raising up. That doesn't mean they are in humane living condition. Also, I never saif they were starving to death, I said they were trapped in shit conditions and didn't have access to many medical stuff and other important material they need to live with dignity, it's very different. This is a false logic argument here, Bilbo.

Secondly when Israel took over control of Gaza in 1967 the average life expectancy of a Palestinaian was 48 years. Now despite being brutally mistreated their life expectanies have INCREASED to 72 years, making them the only persecuted people's in history to have seen their health so drastically improve under such intolerable conditions.

#1 Israel do not help the blocked Part of Gaza with their hospitals. #2 life expectancy did raise up everywhere in the world, that's not a surprise it did here as well. #3, 53% of Women reproductive age women and 44% of children are proven to be anemic. Live up to 72 in a shit condition. The stats you give are very partial and are just designed to cover some numbers and simple important facts; Gaza Strip - New World Encyclopedia

Interestingly infant mortality in Palestine since the Jews took over has dropped from 100 per 1000 live births to 23 per 1000 live births.

Despite your claims to drinking water being withheld, they actually have far more access now than they didn prior to 1967. Also illiteracy was rampant prior to 1967 whereas now, again under Israeli control illiteracy has been almost wiped out amongst those born after 1967.

More than 40% of Gaza is lacking water.

Palestinian water authority: 40% of Gazans lack running water - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Palestine, West Bank: residents face severe water shortage as drought continues

Once again, only pro Israel lobbies are trying to mask these facts giving either bogus numbers or not talking about the fact that during dry periods, Palestinians can't get water where they used to go before because Israel block them the access. Pumping their water or blocking them some alternative sources they used to possess is 2 different things.

These statistical facts obviously don't help the anti-Israeli cause however and so never get mentioned.

Wrong. These statistics do not include the fact that the Hamas, as much as we hate them, did created countless hospital and organization to help the peoples and improve their conditions. Israel never helped them in that behalf and without the contribution they did make on that plan, it would be much worst.

Also there have been numerous false allegations made against Israel, which have been proven false, yet still the idea still persist.

The 2002 massacre of hundred of Palestiniants in Jenin for example has since been exposed as a total fabrication. The bombing of two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances in 2006, which received worldwide condemnation was later found to be a hoax as well yet only the condemnation of Israel is ever publicised. When events are proven to be not as desrcibed, no retraction of Isreal's 'wrong doing' is made thus the myth of Jewis aggression persists in the minds of the public.

Wrong. These massacres happened. The only who denied the thing are the Jerusalem Posts and other newspaper belonging to the jewish lobbies. The army even denied Canadian, the Red Cross and others access pretending and did just let them access in the aftermath, see Philip Winslow's book, p.67 and the official UN report about it which I've read but too lazy to search at the moment.

The fake killing of the 12 year old Palestinian Mohammed al-Dura in 2000 is another atrocity commited against Israel. The whole event was staged, he wasn't even dead but was killed later by the Arabs to propogate their atrocity claims. It was an evil, inhumane attempt to besmirch the Israeli reputation.

I don't know about that one so I can'T comment. However, killing one person is not better than the Israelites killing themselves Ytzak Rabin in a hope to clench down the peace process. This argument is not valid to depict the israelite Gov as good guys in either case. I also never said that every Palestinian were perfect and haven't done only good things. The focus point is: They are put in the direst position imaginable and it is illegal, especially when you realize that the Israelite have killed much more palestinians civilians than israelite civilians have been killed:

First Intifada: 1,100 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces and 164 Israelites by Palestinians.

Second Intifada: 5,500 Palestinians and slightly over 1,000 Israelites.





Now my questions: you never answered how it was correct to bypass international laws and steal the lands from the very well documented 1967 borders.
You also didn't mention why it was o.k to blow out the houses of peoples to punish them for having somebody in their family who was in the Hamas.

I would also like you to explain me how forbidding Arafat from going out from his Q.G all year long and humiliating internationally was any good if you really and seriously thought about a peace process.

Finally, I would like to know why international and independent institutions such as the Red Cross, the UN observers and other organizations have given evidence of crimes against humanity perpetrated by Israel and why the world voted 200 motions against them at the UN. Is it an international plot against Israel orchestrated by the free masons or?

If you want a very good book written on the Gaza subject by an imminent PHD professor (and jewish on top of it with family that has been blown off in Auschwitz) : http://orbooks.com/thistime/buy-this...paign=flotilla

[Gandalf]

Good call on Finkelstein Nameless, he is someone well worth reading and listening to. I'm not going to add anymore to this thread right now because I am tired and can't be bothered with anything deep or meaningful. It's pushing 1am and I have to stay up all night waiting for this bloody football, but Finkelstein is good anyway.