James Toney v Randy Couture

[generalbulldog]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.

Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.

I don't know, but it wasn't shown out here. Nothing is covered these days. I'm not in the UK or the US though, I am Korea bound.

What about the Mosley-Mayweather fight? That was the biggest fight this year. Well I can sort of understand Pac-Cotto considering that Manny is a massive superstar that has transcended his sport. Or maybe it's because he's Asian, I don't know.

[Gandalf]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.

Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.

I don't know, but it wasn't shown out here. Nothing is covered these days. I'm not in the UK or the US though, I am Korea bound.

What about the Mosley-Mayweather fight? That was the biggest fight this year. Well I can sort of understand Pac-Cotto considering that Manny is a massive superstar that has transcended his sport. Or maybe it's because he's Asian, I don't know.

No, I was pissed off because I thought with that being a megafight it would be covered, but no. I had to use a stream for that. That's the frustrating thing, I would happily hand money over to watch a big fight, but I don't even have that option.

[luvfightgame]

UFC certainly has flaws. It is however, a brand, and has created a culture. Boxing has no face, no brand, no culture, no organization, and tons of belts.

By being a brand the UFC has shrunk the size of their tent...being a brand says to the fans "Wear these clothes, drink this energy drink, act like this, etc".....I think it's good that boxing is still more nebulous, as a fan you aren't force fed anything by any organization and it allows for the individual personalities of boxing to remain individual personalities and I think that's a very positive thing. Boxing also doesn't have 1 guy running the show unlike UFC where Dana White is a lightening rod for controversy and he has made some very public very idiotic rants ie "I'll destroy the internet"

So being an organization does have it's draw backs....I mean how long before the UFC fighters go Union? How long before lock outs or collective bargaining? Boxing doesn't have those issues.

Being a brand is what gets them advertisers. They promote video games, motorcycles, clothing, supplements, etc... It's the paying advertisers pushing brands, not UFC. It's like saying that BUD LIGHT is forced on football fans. Because it's a brand that attracts a valuable demographic, they have advertisers that want to be associated with them. It's a sign of success, not being forced to use these products if you want to watch a fight.

UFC fighters going union would be a further sign of success. Whether it's damaging or productive for the fighters would be arguable. Boxing CAN'T go union. Boxing has their own lockouts, look what HBO did to the Klitschkos Don't need unions, boxing in general is handled like Fedor's management, and that's a mess.

Don King, Bob Arum, Gary Shaw, all really stellar guys for boxing. You'd take those 3 over 1 Dana White?

[kheserthorpe]

Boxing's lack of central 'branding' makes it far harder for casual fans to follow.

You can like NFL football without knowing more than one or two players. You might not even know every team. You just know that you've seen it before and it was exciting. If there is an NFL game on, you know that you are seeing the best level of american football available. If its sunday afternoon or monday night, there is a game on. If its the superbowl, you know its 'the big game'. Plenty of people watch who couldn't name ever team, let alone 2 players/team.

Compare this with how difficult it is to follow boxing. If you knew, lets say 15 fighters, you'd still have a tough time knowing what you were looking at on most televised cards. You also probably don't know when those televised cards are. Even if there is a belt on the line, you can judge that the guys must be pretty good, but some belts mean less then others and some weight classes seem weaker then others. For casual fans, they don't know what's happening.

The UFC closes a lot of this gap. There are fans who might only know 5-10 fighters, and many 'fans' couldn't even list the 5 UFC beltholders if you asked them. They don't know what weight class half the fighters are in. I've sat in bars beside ecstatic fans telling me they'd like to see GSP fight Rashad Evans, and seem to not really pick up on my subtle hint that the 35 lb two weight class differential is a fair bit. But fans like this can sort of follow the UFC. Every 3-4 weeks there is a PPV card. You like UFC, you watch that, the end. If there's a belt on the line, its a 'real' belt.

The last time Wlad Klitschko fought, it was on free tv here, late afternoon. I have friends who like boxing, but don't follow it well. None of them knew the fight was even on.

[ralph]

Good point. MMA guys seem to think that they have an advantage if it was a street fight but if there was a group attack a boxer can fend off many guys with his fists. An MMA fighter would be busy humping one guy whilst the others beat the crap outta him.

Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.

[El Kabong]

Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.

....what did Tim Sylvia find out?


As far as the branding, yeah MMA has it and now you have loads of "Fans" who know fuck all about the sport, they just like the culture. In boxing right now fans have to follow the SPORT not the culture....there's pros and cons to each business model, in one you get a bunch of fair weather fans and idiots and with the other you don't get as many fans but you get more dedicated fans.

Wheres the money? BOXING

[ralph]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

UFC officials announce Asian operations, NBA exec Mark Fischer named head

by Dann Stupp on Aug 29, 2010 at 12:00 pm ET

BOSTON – As expected the Ultimate Fighting Championship has opened a dedicated Asian Operations division, and former NBA China executive Mark Fischer has been named executive vice president and managing director.

UFC officials made the announcement at Saturday's post-UFC 118 press conference in Boston.

As part of the initiative, Fischer will look to build a roster of local talent and develop relationships with many sports federations in the region, including the China National Wushu Federation.

Credit mmajunkie.com

[ralph]

Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.

....what did Tim Sylvia find out?


As far as the branding, yeah MMA has it and now you have loads of "Fans" who know fuck all about the sport, they just like the culture. In boxing right now fans have to follow the SPORT not the culture....there's pros and cons to each business model, in one you get a bunch of fair weather fans and idiots and with the other you don't get as many fans but you get more dedicated fans.

Wheres the money? BOXING

I'll bet there are more MMA gyms in the US, and people involved in it than boxing gyms and people boxing.

try www dot findmmagym.com and type in a city.

[ralph]

....what did Tim Sylvia find out?

He found out he didn't use all the training and skills he had available.

[El Kabong]

So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.

The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.

Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys

[Caine3078]

So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.

The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.

Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys

This arguement of boxing vs MMA is so ridiculous. The UFC is 17 years old 17 boxing is how old? Come on of course boxing is going to make more money. MMA is still relatively young as a sport, but it is growing.

The whole put a MMA guy in the ring with a boxer the MMA guy would get whipped. The same goes the other way. The whole arguement is just stupid. These are two completely different sports and do not need to be compared at all.

[luvfightgame]

So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.

The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.

Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys

See what you are highlighting isn't a positive thing. Boxers getting huge paychecks for showing up contributed to the current state of PRO Boxing. How many talented boxers turned to shit as soon as they got a big paycheck. Lots of them are playing the lottery, not trying to be the best.

The pay disparity is a huge problem. Top boxers make too much. Top MMA make not enough. There needs to be a middle ground. And I am willing to bet that UFC pay will continue to go up and probably reach the middle ground.

MMA is only 17yrs old. It will be in the olympics as some point. About half of the disciplines are in the olympics: wrestling, boxing, and judo. As far as amateurs to draw from..... wrestling is WAYYYYYY more popular than boxing as an amateur sport. Check how many junior high, high school, colleges have a boxing team and how many have a wrestling team. And MMA has a deeper talent pool than boxing because of wrestling, judo, Jiu Jitsu, etc, and there is a wider international base.

Mercer and Silvia was supposed to be boxing and Silvia was TRYING to do the opposite of James Toney by beating a boxer boxing.....

There's an unsanctioned fight Saturday night in Alabama between over-the-hill boxer Ray Mercer and former UFC heavyweight champion Tim Sylvia, the kind of ridiculous fight that gives combat sports a bad name. But the fight just got even more ridiculous, because just two days beforehand, the promoters have changed it from a boxing match to an MMA fight.

Needless to say we know how that turned out, and it proves what most reasonable fans have been saying all along. Boxers will win a boxing match, and MMA fighters will win an mma fight. Tim was trying to box. He wanted to cross over. He might have made it through the first round if the gloves were boxing gloves, but he would have gotten a beating either way, 4oz is just a lot less forgiving. You will never see punch stats with 4oz gloves where a guy eats 500punches and is conscious.

[ralph]

So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.

The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.

Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys

The UFC has only been around since 2001 in it's present form. I believe it's became more popular in the time it's existed than boxing has, considering how long boxing has been around.
As far as pay, give it some time. It'll get there.

[El Kabong]

There's just no arguing with MMA fans

OK so Ray Mercer took a SURPRISE MMA match vs Tim Sylvia and whipped his ass in under a minute and you think that vindicates Sylvia?

The Olympics won't have MMA...#1 There are no amateur MMA programs out there #2 The sport cannot offer any extra protection to it's amateurs given the whole nature of the sport (striking AND grappling) that would require headgear and perhaps bigger gloves...just my opinion given the way boxing and TKD are done in the Olympics

ralph, the internet and 24/7 news (in this case sports) media you can expect things to catch fire like UFC...the issue becomes how will it hold up? As for the money issue, the UFC still bases it's marketing on ENTIRE CARDS....in boxing they usually market just 1 fight, I think that's probably easier because the fan expecting a "Solid CARD" can be disappointed if they see only 2 solid fights, however the fan expecting to see "1 Solid FIGHT" would be very pleased if they got to see 2 solid fights.

[Spicoli]

Good point. MMA guys seem to think that they have an advantage if it was a street fight but if there was a group attack a boxer can fend off many guys with his fists. An MMA fighter would be busy humping one guy whilst the others beat the crap outta him.

Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.

No Toney found out he was an under trained fat out of shape former champion who had no business in another mans house OR kitchen while that man was still hungry...has nothing to do with boxing being a less potent form of offense or sport. Especially in a street where should you take ground and go for submission vs numerous guys you'll end up with a trash can wrapped around your head and a boot in your arse. That was the point I believe.