When was the last time Pacman faced a true boxer?

[JonesJrMayweather]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

[Spicoli]

David diaz had mad skills.

[generalbulldog]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

The Morales fight needed to be taken first, because that was his conqueror, the man that manhandled him in the ring and mocked him by fighting southpaw in the final round.

As for Manny, he's going to get criticized no matter who he faces, when you are 1/2 of the face of boxing right now it happens. An example would be people were saying Pac ducked Nate Cambell and should have fought him after testing the water at 135 after fighting David Diaz, instead of De La Hoya. Now who the hell would turn down 15 or 16 million to fight Nate Cambell for maybe 2 or 3 million? Shit was ridiculous. Or that he ducked Bradley when Hatton was considered to be the man and lineal champ at 140. That fight he got paid 13 million. So he should have fought Bradley for maybe 2 or 3 million who's only a beltholder? Come on, that doesn't make sense financially or in boxing terms.

Now there could be a reasonable argument that he "ducked" Shane after Cotto, but it was expected he would fight Mayweather, until negotiations broke down between both parties and if I"m not mistaken Shane was going to fight Berto until the earthquake happened and then the Floyd-Mosley fight happened.

I'm a firm believer that at the elite level, guys aren't afraid of each other. Fights don't happen for various reasons. See B-Hop/Jones as an example. Took what 17 years for a 2nd fight to happen.

[:::PSL:::]

David diaz had mad skills.

[luvfightgame]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

Raheem wasn't supposed to win against Morales. Pac and Morales shared the card and were supposed to fight each other and both win...... Just like Zab getting beat by Baldomir, but PBF still fought Zab. Promoter made the fight, not Pac.

Berto and Collazo would be good fights for Pac. Better than Margo. Of course, Margo has the same promoter as Pac, so it's all about money, but not for Pac. Blame Arum, and the various promoters.

Same point though. Pac wasn't avoiding anyone. Fans weren't clamoring for Pac to fight Raheem,Collazo, Berto, etc. Pac was fighting PBF. When that didn't happen his promoter took the next best payday fights.

[rjj tszyu]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

[ElTerribleMorales]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

people keep saying this when honestly i think it's being played up too much, Pacquiao is doing what Jones already has done, difference is in the higher weight classes well the gaps between divisions are a bit wider therefore there are less weight classes than from jnr welter on down, both guys have spanned their careers 40 lbs, if anything Jones' accomplishment of winning a title should be even more praised since he didn't do it at a catch weight and Ruiz outweighed him by what? 40 lbs?

it's not a knock on Pacquiao, but i think what makes his accomplishments special is more WHO he has beaten rather than how many titles or weight classes he's jumped up in

[Majesty]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

people keep saying this when honestly i think it's being played up too much, Pacquiao is doing what Jones already has done, difference is in the higher weight classes well the gaps between divisions are a bit wider therefore there are less weight classes than from jnr welter on down, both guys have spanned their careers 40 lbs, if anything Jones' accomplishment of winning a title should be even more praised since he didn't do it at a catch weight and Ruiz outweighed him by what? 40 lbs?

it's not a knock on Pacquiao, but i think what makes his accomplishments special is more WHO he has beaten rather than how many titles or weight classes he's jumped up in

the thing you have remember though is boxing fans are fickle.

Because Jones' losses since then have 'apparently' put into question how great he is, accomplishments of the past be darned its all flushed down the pike because anyone can pick apart a record.

If Jones had retired after he fought Tarver the first time you'd be hearing he was the greatest since Ray Robinson and when it came time to bite the bullet he faced it flawlessly. That didn't happen and people ignore his accomplishments and pick them apart instead.

Same thing will happen to Pacquiao(in america) if Mayweather beats him one sidedly.

I mean come on, Pacquiao is a guy HBO said Zahir Raheem would trouble after he lost to Morales and Raheem beat him. Remember HBO said that Raheem was a slick boxer counter puncher and someone to keep Pacquiao AWAY from.

But now, they are trying to make you believe he has the greatest chance of beating Mayweather.

If he loses, the same things will happen. One thing I will give a fighter that is fighting for their country like in the Phillipines. Is that they will stand behind Pacquiao even after if Mayweather dominated him. While I'm willing to bet here in the US all the picking apart of his record will begin on a much larger scale.

Sad, yes, but that's how its been going. You build a guy up for 10 years only to try to pick him apart in a manner of months.

Apparently around here your victories mean absolutely squat if there is a reason to criticize you for them, win or loss. No fighter out there has flawless performances, no one. But tell that to the people that hate on every performance they've had where they faced adversity.

I kind of find it hilarious how people always refuse to give credit to a fighter until they've faced adversity. And then once they've faced adversity, use it as a reason of weakness against them.

[JazMerkin]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

The Morales fight needed to be taken first, because that was his conqueror, the man that manhandled him in the ring and mocked him by fighting southpaw in the final round.

As for Manny, he's going to get criticized no matter who he faces, when you are 1/2 of the face of boxing right now it happens. An example would be people were saying Pac ducked Nate Cambell and should have fought him after testing the water at 135 after fighting David Diaz, instead of De La Hoya. Now who the hell would turn down 15 or 16 million to fight Nate Cambell for maybe 2 or 3 million? Shit was ridiculous. Or that he ducked Bradley when Hatton was considered to be the man and lineal champ at 140. That fight he got paid 13 million. So he should have fought Bradley for maybe 2 or 3 million who's only a beltholder? Come on, that doesn't make sense financially or in boxing terms.

Now there could be a reasonable argument that he "ducked" Shane after Cotto, but it was expected he would fight Mayweather, until negotiations broke down between both parties and if I"m not mistaken Shane was going to fight Berto until the earthquake happened and then the Floyd-Mosley fight happened.

I'm a firm believer that at the elite level, guys aren't afraid of each other. Fights don't happen for various reasons. See B-Hop/Jones as an example. Took what 17 years for a 2nd fight to happen.

This. I've always thought the idea that Raheem or Nate Campbell would have beaten Pacquiao is laughable, he's just on a different level to those guys. It's like the idea that Mayweather should have fought Paul Spadafora rather than moving up to 140.

I definitely agree with that in bold, particularly given the opposition that these guys have to get to the top. The only exceptions I can possibly think of would be Bowe/Lewis & maybe Haye with the Klitschkos, although I don't really buy that, I think he's just milking it for now.

I think more often its a case that the trainers or promoters aren't keen to put their guys in with other guys who may pose a bad style match up. But, really the only guys who would now be beating people like Pac & PBF are guys who are the best there is, which simply doesn't describe the likes of Raheem & Nate, even though I am a big Nate fan.

[KKisser]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

that could very well be, but if you've seen almost all of pac's fight there's just no quit in him. i remember the sasakul fight when pacquiao was being schooled all throughout the match but he kept attacking the thai fighter landing only now and then and finally knocking him out. it's possible a fight with floyd would be like that, only at a highest level.

that what makes pac-floyd matchup intriguing. i'm rooting for pac but no one can be totally sure how it will turn out.

[generalbulldog]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

that could very well be, but if you've seen almost all of pac's fight there's just no quit in him. i remember the sasakul fight when pacquiao was being schooled all throughout the match but he kept attacking the thai fighter landing only now and then and finally knocking him out. it's possible a fight with floyd would be like that, only at a highest level.

that what makes pac-floyd matchup intriguing. i'm rooting for pac but no one can be totally sure how it will turn out.

I think to this day his win against Sasakul is his most impressive victory. To be a lineal champ in your teenage years is very rare. He beat Sasakul for the lineal flyweight championship at 19. In boxing history you can only count on 1 hand of the other guys accomplishing that feat. I can only name Benitez and Canzoneri as the other 2, there could possibly be more but that's all I can think of right now.

[rjj tszyu]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

that could very well be, but if you've seen almost all of pac's fight there's just no quit in him. i remember the sasakul fight when pacquiao was being schooled all throughout the match but he kept attacking the thai fighter landing only now and then and finally knocking him out. it's possible a fight with floyd would be like that, only at a highest level.

that what makes pac-floyd matchup intriguing. i'm rooting for pac but no one can be totally sure how it will turn out.

I think to this day his win against Sasakul is his most impressive victory. To be a lineal champ in your teenage years is very rare. He beat Sasakul for the lineal flyweight championship at 19. In boxing history you can only count on 1 hand of the other guys accomplishing that feat. I can only name Benitez and Canzoneri as the other 2, there could possibly be more but that's all I can think of right now.

Bulldog. This could actually make a great thread in itself. I immediately thought Salvador Sanchez MUST have been in his teens but thank god I checked it out first as he was an ancient 21 and 1 month when he won his world title.

I will be thinking all night now about who else was a world champ in their teens lol.

[:::PSL:::]

I know some will say ODLH but that wasn't a prime boxing Oscar. So take away that fight and when was the last time he faced a fighter that could truly box on a world class level?

When I say box, I mean that their initial strategy is to box first, fight second.

Marquez...without question. Marquez is a true technician...intelligent and skilled. That is why his timing and counter punching gave Pac fits.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason I have Mayweather to school Pac. Mayweather is the greatest counter puncher and has the best boxing brain of any fighter in the world today. For me that is what will make him dominate Pac who likes to pick off these fighter who just keep walking him down all night and being pummelled for their troubles.

Oscar was a great boxer in his day BUT I don't think he should have agreed to make Welter, and he had already shown he wasn't the force he once was when he fought Forbes. Don't want to take it away from Pac though as I think he is the greatest weight climber of all time, but I truly believe he will more than meet his match if he fights Floyd.

that could very well be, but if you've seen almost all of pac's fight there's just no quit in him. i remember the sasakul fight when pacquiao was being schooled all throughout the match but he kept attacking the thai fighter landing only now and then and finally knocking him out. it's possible a fight with floyd would be like that, only at a highest level.

that what makes pac-floyd matchup intriguing. i'm rooting for pac but no one can be totally sure how it will turn out.

I think to this day his win against Sasakul is his most impressive victory. To be a lineal champ in your teenage years is very rare. He beat Sasakul for the lineal flyweight championship at 19. In boxing history you can only count on 1 hand of the other guys accomplishing that feat. I can only name Benitez and Canzoneri as the other 2, there could possibly be more but that's all I can think of right now.

Bulldog. This could actually make a great thread in itself. I immediately thought Salvador Sanchez MUST have been in his teens but thank god I checked it out first as he was an ancient 21 and 1 month when he won his world title.

I will be thinking all night now about who else was a world champ in their teens lol.

Marvin Sonsona.

[JonesJrMayweather]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

The Morales fight needed to be taken first, because that was his conqueror, the man that manhandled him in the ring and mocked him by fighting southpaw in the final round.

As for Manny, he's going to get criticized no matter who he faces, when you are 1/2 of the face of boxing right now it happens. An example would be people were saying Pac ducked Nate Cambell and should have fought him after testing the water at 135 after fighting David Diaz, instead of De La Hoya. Now who the hell would turn down 15 or 16 million to fight Nate Cambell for maybe 2 or 3 million? Shit was ridiculous. Or that he ducked Bradley when Hatton was considered to be the man and lineal champ at 140. That fight he got paid 13 million. So he should have fought Bradley for maybe 2 or 3 million who's only a beltholder? Come on, that doesn't make sense financially or in boxing terms.

Now there could be a reasonable argument that he "ducked" Shane after Cotto, but it was expected he would fight Mayweather, until negotiations broke down between both parties and if I"m not mistaken Shane was going to fight Berto until the earthquake happened and then the Floyd-Mosley fight happened.

I'm a firm believer that at the elite level, guys aren't afraid of each other. Fights don't happen for various reasons. See B-Hop/Jones as an example. Took what 17 years for a 2nd fight to happen.

This. I've always thought the idea that Raheem or Nate Campbell would have beaten Pacquiao is laughable, he's just on a different level to those guys. It's like the idea that Mayweather should have fought Paul Spadafora rather than moving up to 140.

I definitely agree with that in bold, particularly given the opposition that these guys have to get to the top. The only exceptions I can possibly think of would be Bowe/Lewis & maybe Haye with the Klitschkos, although I don't really buy that, I think he's just milking it for now.

I think more often its a case that the trainers or promoters aren't keen to put their guys in with other guys who may pose a bad style match up. But, really the only guys who would now be beating people like Pac & PBF are guys who are the best there is, which simply doesn't describe the likes of Raheem & Nate, even though I am a big Nate fan.

You might be using too much hindsight. Meaning thinking of the much improved Pac vs the one that faced Moralles. At that time, Raheem would have beaten him. After watching what he did to Morrales, Roach clearly made Pac slow his offense down in the Morrales rematch, because he saw that Morrales had fits with a more controlled boxer. I mean even when Barrera decided to slow down and pick his shots better he beat Morrales easier than in the wars they fough. I think Barrerra actually won all three.

But again, the Manny that fought Morrales, would have been beaten soundly by Raheem, don't know about Campbell because he wasn't ready yet. But as MAJESTY pointed out, that night Lampley was saying "I don't think Pac's people should put him anywhere near RAheem", and Emmanulle Steward who used to train Raheem said "absolutely because Raheem is very good slick boxer and can take a punch"...Right now I think Collazo would give him fits more so than Berto would.

[rjj tszyu]

Hiroki Ioka was only 19 when he became the first man to hold the WBC Minimumweight world title in 1987

Do we count this as Lineal? The WBA didn't have a title until the following year but the IBF's champion had won his title a few months earlier than Ioka only to then lose to Ioka 22 days after Iokas 20th birthday.