When was the last time Pacman faced a true boxer?

[JazMerkin]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

The Morales fight needed to be taken first, because that was his conqueror, the man that manhandled him in the ring and mocked him by fighting southpaw in the final round.

As for Manny, he's going to get criticized no matter who he faces, when you are 1/2 of the face of boxing right now it happens. An example would be people were saying Pac ducked Nate Cambell and should have fought him after testing the water at 135 after fighting David Diaz, instead of De La Hoya. Now who the hell would turn down 15 or 16 million to fight Nate Cambell for maybe 2 or 3 million? Shit was ridiculous. Or that he ducked Bradley when Hatton was considered to be the man and lineal champ at 140. That fight he got paid 13 million. So he should have fought Bradley for maybe 2 or 3 million who's only a beltholder? Come on, that doesn't make sense financially or in boxing terms.

Now there could be a reasonable argument that he "ducked" Shane after Cotto, but it was expected he would fight Mayweather, until negotiations broke down between both parties and if I"m not mistaken Shane was going to fight Berto until the earthquake happened and then the Floyd-Mosley fight happened.

I'm a firm believer that at the elite level, guys aren't afraid of each other. Fights don't happen for various reasons. See B-Hop/Jones as an example. Took what 17 years for a 2nd fight to happen.

This. I've always thought the idea that Raheem or Nate Campbell would have beaten Pacquiao is laughable, he's just on a different level to those guys. It's like the idea that Mayweather should have fought Paul Spadafora rather than moving up to 140.

I definitely agree with that in bold, particularly given the opposition that these guys have to get to the top. The only exceptions I can possibly think of would be Bowe/Lewis & maybe Haye with the Klitschkos, although I don't really buy that, I think he's just milking it for now.

I think more often its a case that the trainers or promoters aren't keen to put their guys in with other guys who may pose a bad style match up. But, really the only guys who would now be beating people like Pac & PBF are guys who are the best there is, which simply doesn't describe the likes of Raheem & Nate, even though I am a big Nate fan.

[JonesJrMayweather]

Who was available that was fighting at the level Pac's been on for the last 5 years?

Fact is in the weight classes he's been at, until welterweight. There were no top level "boxers" black, white, whatever......

Morales, ODH, Hatton, Cotto, Barrera, are all top level boxer/punchers.

There were no defensive first boxers in those times and classes.

No one said defensive first. He should have faced Raheem after he schooled Morrales, but took the easier fight instead. The rest is history. Don't see how facing Margarito made more sense than facing Berto or Collazo unless it was all about money first.

The Morales fight needed to be taken first, because that was his conqueror, the man that manhandled him in the ring and mocked him by fighting southpaw in the final round.

As for Manny, he's going to get criticized no matter who he faces, when you are 1/2 of the face of boxing right now it happens. An example would be people were saying Pac ducked Nate Cambell and should have fought him after testing the water at 135 after fighting David Diaz, instead of De La Hoya. Now who the hell would turn down 15 or 16 million to fight Nate Cambell for maybe 2 or 3 million? Shit was ridiculous. Or that he ducked Bradley when Hatton was considered to be the man and lineal champ at 140. That fight he got paid 13 million. So he should have fought Bradley for maybe 2 or 3 million who's only a beltholder? Come on, that doesn't make sense financially or in boxing terms.

Now there could be a reasonable argument that he "ducked" Shane after Cotto, but it was expected he would fight Mayweather, until negotiations broke down between both parties and if I"m not mistaken Shane was going to fight Berto until the earthquake happened and then the Floyd-Mosley fight happened.

I'm a firm believer that at the elite level, guys aren't afraid of each other. Fights don't happen for various reasons. See B-Hop/Jones as an example. Took what 17 years for a 2nd fight to happen.

This. I've always thought the idea that Raheem or Nate Campbell would have beaten Pacquiao is laughable, he's just on a different level to those guys. It's like the idea that Mayweather should have fought Paul Spadafora rather than moving up to 140.

I definitely agree with that in bold, particularly given the opposition that these guys have to get to the top. The only exceptions I can possibly think of would be Bowe/Lewis & maybe Haye with the Klitschkos, although I don't really buy that, I think he's just milking it for now.

I think more often its a case that the trainers or promoters aren't keen to put their guys in with other guys who may pose a bad style match up. But, really the only guys who would now be beating people like Pac & PBF are guys who are the best there is, which simply doesn't describe the likes of Raheem & Nate, even though I am a big Nate fan.

You might be using too much hindsight. Meaning thinking of the much improved Pac vs the one that faced Moralles. At that time, Raheem would have beaten him. After watching what he did to Morrales, Roach clearly made Pac slow his offense down in the Morrales rematch, because he saw that Morrales had fits with a more controlled boxer. I mean even when Barrera decided to slow down and pick his shots better he beat Morrales easier than in the wars they fough. I think Barrerra actually won all three.

But again, the Manny that fought Morrales, would have been beaten soundly by Raheem, don't know about Campbell because he wasn't ready yet. But as MAJESTY pointed out, that night Lampley was saying "I don't think Pac's people should put him anywhere near RAheem", and Emmanulle Steward who used to train Raheem said "absolutely because Raheem is very good slick boxer and can take a punch"...Right now I think Collazo would give him fits more so than Berto would.