Wikileaks? Are you for or against what they are doing?

[Kev]

Some of you people are out of your minds. You are seriously suggesting that Michael Moore and Julian Assange should be assasinated? Assasinated for what? For providing us with evidence that the US elite is as corrupt and immoral as I have been arguing for years. You don't like the truth, it's too much for you to handle? So it is perfectly acceptable to start a war based on deceit, but not okay to reveal a few home truths about the dishonest nature of that war? Bush gets a pass, but we want Assange to be put out by a sniper? One man is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands and Assange is likely responsible for the death of noone.

So in calling for the assasination of Assange then you are obviously advocating the assasination of anyone at the New York Times and The Guardian who were also involved in the vetting process of these documents. How about then assasinating anyone who then goes on to read these said documents. Get a grip. We need checks on unlimited power. Our governments do not listen. We need alternative means of reigning them and the corporate elite in and Wikileaks has been doing that. We should be proud of the work Assange has been doing and should be highly critical of our governments. And rightly so.

And Lyle US party politics is irrelevant to this debate. The only reason that the Republicans have come back is because Obama is a fraud. He has always been a corporate shill whence no public option for health care, huge bail outs for the financial sector, expansion of the war and a watered down financial reform bill. People are dissapointed and their jobs haven't come back, but the only alternative are the Republicans. It will get much worse if they get into power. There is no voting alternative for the American people. You either vote for this party of big business or that one. There is no party looking out for ordinary people.

To be clear, I have not suggested he should be assassinated. I agree with you that would be a gross abuse of power, and would likely make a martyr of him anyway.

But he's no hero. His last 250,000 cables don't reveal any corruption, just 250,000 breaches of trust and theft of personal and confiential documents.

He is a menace to world peace with his irresponsible meddling.

Nonsense, the people who bang the drums for phoney wars are the threats to world peace. The release of data showing corruption and abuses of power in those illegal and immoral wars is a healthy thing. We need more Wikileaks and maybe we won't even be going to war in the first place.

And I certainly do not regard Assange as a hero. I don't know the man, but I do think is articulate and presents his views well. I appreciate the role that he has played in recent years and I would like him to continue doing what he is doing. He is simply doing what the gutted out media has failed to do and in particular I blame the US media. These places have been gutted and good investigative journalism just doesn't seem to exist anymore whence the apathy of the general public concerning what are really significant global events.

Assange does NO investigation though! All he does is go into a house, catalogue all the contents and then put it up on the internet for all to see, irrespective of what the public interest is or whether any crime has been committed.

It's completely unethical.

Actually, I don't disapprove of all the Wikileaks revelations. I thought the video showing the US helicopter crew gunning down a crowd of innocent civilians was in the public interest. It's not that I disaprove of certain crimes or potential coverups being exposed.

But Assange is not doing that. He's just putting everything up on the internet wheter relevant or criminal or not.

How does it serve the public interest in any way (or improve diplomatic relations between countries) for him to reveal that one diplomat thinks one nation's president is a joke?

One particular cable that really annoyed me was the disclosure of certain 'critical sites', designated by America as being crucial to their national security. Many of these sites were not in the US, and were civilian infrastructures.

How is revealing that in any way helpful to peace? How does it serve the public interest? How can you not see the recklessness of such actions in an age of global terrorism. Would you, for example now want to be a worker at the snake anti venom laboratory in Australia, now it's been identified as a critical US infrastructure? Would you not be pretty pissed off at Assange for identifying your place of work as an ideal location for a terror attack?

There is no moral basis for releasing such information, and Assange is just endangering the lives of ordinary people around the world with such reckless disclosures.

He absolutely needs to be stopped imo.

Investigative journalism means to find out the facts about an event. To reveal something that was hitherto unknown. To move beyond merely parroting what the Pentagon is telling you. Sure, Assange is not doing traditional investigative journalism, but his organisation is gaining access to the facts. Wikileaks has sources who provide the information and the information is then vetted and revealed to the public. The recent releases were vetted along with generally respected newspaper publications. There is nothing unethical about this behaviour.

There is absolutely no reason for him to be stopped. Without Wikileaks we will simply have power continuing to act unchecked and have further threats to global peace commited by the leading proponents of state sponsored terrorism.

Here's a few reasons why he should be stopped
1. These leaks are a threat to National security

2. These leaks were state secrets obtained illegally and are therefore to be considered espionage

3. These leaks were released to cause malicious effects and therefore doing so would be considered a form of terrorism and anyone who helped him gain access to such information that is a US citizen should be held for treason

...shall I continue?

1. Which ones?

2. Assange is simply the messenger here. You don't shoot the messenger, he didn't steal anything.

3. Going to war on the pretext of lies was extremely malicious and has has been descibed by some as illegal and against international law. Perhaps we should try Bush for war crimes.

He paid Bradley Manning for the documents. Well more accurately he promised to support him financially to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars for the best legal representation and to provide him with the best defence.

But he failed to deliver on his promise. Despite appealing for and receiving donations for Bradley Manning, he didn't hand them over.

Also he has refused to provide finanical details of his funding. It seems everybody's secrets are fair game but Assange's own.

That's your man of principle right there.

[El Kabong]

Your ravings about elites and unchecked power just leads me to believe that no matter the cost you consider America a great evil and you want it brought down to size.

I merely state that before you put all your eggs in that basket you consider the alternative to what we have today. Consider Nazi or Soviet rule, Communism and Socialism may be terms you agree to on paper but once again in the real world those forms of government bring nothing good to the table and the elites of those societies are hypocrites of the highest order and corrupt to boot.

These leaks can cause trouble, what happens if he leaks something that draws a military response from a nation like Iran or North Korea. And don't give me that "Iran has had to build its army to make sure its safe" bullcrap, they want Israel off the map, they've said as much and with no leaks needed

[Kev]

Your ravings about elites and unchecked power just leads me to believe that no matter the cost you consider America a great evil and you want it brought down to size.

I merely state that before you put all your eggs in that basket you consider the alternative to what we have today. Consider Nazi or Soviet rule, Communism and Socialism may be terms you agree to on paper but once again in the real world those forms of government bring nothing good to the table and the elites of those societies are hypocrites of the highest order and corrupt to boot.

These leaks can cause trouble, what happens if he leaks something that draws a military response from a nation like Iran or North Korea. And don't give me that "Iran has had to build its army to make sure its safe" bullcrap, they want Israel off the map, they've said as much and with no leaks needed

The way Miles talks about Iran you would think they are the utopian model for peaceful democratic government.

Every other nation in the Arab world is a tinpot dictatorship, Israel are Satan's own spawn. America is the biggest threat to world peace, Britain is it's lapdog.

It seems that Iran leads the world on human rights issues and is the only peaceful and family friendly nation in the world today.

Let's just have another quick look at their avuncular, almost saintly leader.

[Gandalf]

Your ravings about elites and unchecked power just leads me to believe that no matter the cost you consider America a great evil and you want it brought down to size.

I merely state that before you put all your eggs in that basket you consider the alternative to what we have today. Consider Nazi or Soviet rule, Communism and Socialism may be terms you agree to on paper but once again in the real world those forms of government bring nothing good to the table and the elites of those societies are hypocrites of the highest order and corrupt to boot.

These leaks can cause trouble, what happens if he leaks something that draws a military response from a nation like Iran or North Korea. And don't give me that "Iran has had to build its army to make sure its safe" bullcrap, they want Israel off the map, they've said as much and with no leaks needed

The way Miles talks about Iran you would think they are the utopian model for peaceful democratic government.

Every other nation in the Arab world is a tinpot dictatorship, Israel are Satan's own spawn. America is the biggest threat to world peace, Britain is it's lapdog.

It seems that Iran leads the world on human rights issues and is the only peaceful and family friendly nation in the world today.

Let's just have another quick look at their avuncular, almost saintly leader.

Not at all, Bilbo. Iran is another example of unhealthy concentration of power in the hands of an elite that is not responsive to the will of the general population. Sound familiar? I will not defend the regime.

And only Israel has moved beyond the rhetoric in recent years, Bilbo....not Iran.

[Kev]

Your ravings about elites and unchecked power just leads me to believe that no matter the cost you consider America a great evil and you want it brought down to size.

I merely state that before you put all your eggs in that basket you consider the alternative to what we have today. Consider Nazi or Soviet rule, Communism and Socialism may be terms you agree to on paper but once again in the real world those forms of government bring nothing good to the table and the elites of those societies are hypocrites of the highest order and corrupt to boot.

These leaks can cause trouble, what happens if he leaks something that draws a military response from a nation like Iran or North Korea. And don't give me that "Iran has had to build its army to make sure its safe" bullcrap, they want Israel off the map, they've said as much and with no leaks needed

The way Miles talks about Iran you would think they are the utopian model for peaceful democratic government.

Every other nation in the Arab world is a tinpot dictatorship, Israel are Satan's own spawn. America is the biggest threat to world peace, Britain is it's lapdog.

It seems that Iran leads the world on human rights issues and is the only peaceful and family friendly nation in the world today.

Let's just have another quick look at their avuncular, almost saintly leader.

Not at all, Bilbo. Iran is another example of unhealthy concentration of power in the hands of an elite that is not responsive to the will of the general population. Sound familiar? I will not defend the regime.

And only Israel has moved beyond the rhetoric in recent years, Bilbo....not Iran.

What nations has Israel attacked in recent years?

[Gandalf]

Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2008 most readily spring to mind. Yeah, yeah, Palestine is not recognised as a country, but it is hardly Israel.

[Gandalf]

An interesting read.

Freed on bail – but US steps up efforts to charge Assange with conspiracy - Americas, World - The Independent

How low will America go to get their man? Manning is the man who stole the files and did so on his own, but the US government is going to go relatively easy on him if he says Assange was behind it too? That is low.

I'm glad to see John Conyers has a bit of sense and I was also pleased to read the comments at the end of the article. Seems that most of the people posting are of a similar mindset to me.

[Oggie]

Your ravings about elites and unchecked power just leads me to believe that no matter the cost you consider America a great evil and you want it brought down to size.

I merely state that before you put all your eggs in that basket you consider the alternative to what we have today. Consider Nazi or Soviet rule, Communism and Socialism may be terms you agree to on paper but once again in the real world those forms of government bring nothing good to the table and the elites of those societies are hypocrites of the highest order and corrupt to boot.

These leaks can cause trouble, what happens if he leaks something that draws a military response from a nation like Iran or North Korea. And don't give me that "Iran has had to build its army to make sure its safe" bullcrap, they want Israel off the map, they've said as much and with no leaks needed

The way Miles talks about Iran you would think they are the utopian model for peaceful democratic government.

Every other nation in the Arab world is a tinpot dictatorship, Israel are Satan's own spawn. America is the biggest threat to world peace, Britain is it's lapdog.

It seems that Iran leads the world on human rights issues and is the only peaceful and family friendly nation in the world today.

Let's just have another quick look at their avuncular, almost saintly leader.

Not at all, Bilbo. Iran is another example of unhealthy concentration of power in the hands of an elite that is not responsive to the will of the general population. Sound familiar? I will not defend the regime.

And only Israel has moved beyond the rhetoric in recent years, Bilbo....not Iran.

What nations has Israel attacked in recent years?

For what it's worth, Assange annoys me and he seems to be a little spotlight happy for my liking, revelling in the power that he finds himself wielding... but I'm happy to know what is going on and how things work behind the doors of the manipulative masters the world over.

[Gandalf]

Your ravings about elites and unchecked power just leads me to believe that no matter the cost you consider America a great evil and you want it brought down to size.

I merely state that before you put all your eggs in that basket you consider the alternative to what we have today. Consider Nazi or Soviet rule, Communism and Socialism may be terms you agree to on paper but once again in the real world those forms of government bring nothing good to the table and the elites of those societies are hypocrites of the highest order and corrupt to boot.

These leaks can cause trouble, what happens if he leaks something that draws a military response from a nation like Iran or North Korea. And don't give me that "Iran has had to build its army to make sure its safe" bullcrap, they want Israel off the map, they've said as much and with no leaks needed

I am suspicious of any form of concentrated power. I become extremely suspicious when nations attack other nations without consideration of the legal and moral ramifications. I become even more suspicious when that nation decides to go after an individual who has done nothing more than show some of the dirty linen. So on that basis I think it would do the world a great deal of good to see America cut down to size, to at least force it to become a more reflective and responsible superpower.

I do consider the alternatives. I look at China and am appalled by how they treat dissidents. I am appalled by the lack of basic rights and freedoms, but at the same time I look at the West and am appalled at all the corporations that have gone to China to take advantage of cheap labour. The west has made China what it is and so ultimately we are responsible for that political system. How can we judge them when we were so quick to buy their cheaply made products? In fact I look at America as a state that is rapidly beginning to take on the qualities of a fascist state. Not quite what the Nazi's had, but the way the media colluded to build up the need for war in Iraq was blatant propaganda, the way the government works for the interests of large corporations rather than the general population, the ridiculous homeland security expansion. Freedoms are being stripped away and freedom of thought is being clamped down upon. Anyone who disagrees is either a terrorist or dare I say it a socialist!

Communism and socialism are very nice words on paper, but in practice communism doesn't work. Socialism on the other hand can be and is very successful. Of course Friedman style economists would disagree, but I don't see how you can argue against the benefits of nationalised utilities and public transportation, universal healthcare and a sufficient welfare state. These are not only good things on paper, but the types of things that responsible and reflective states provide to their citizens and they do the world over. Most countries that have been forced to accept Friedman style economic policies have ultimately rejected them. Freemarket capitalism is what has failed and you are seeing it right now in America.

Iran and North Korea are extremely small fish at the end of the day. The biggest threat to world peace is America, so just maybe America should clean itself up and stop being such a bully. Your nation is responsible for the murder of how many people on this planet and you are concerned about what a number of released files might do to provoke a response from Iran and North Korea? Has Iran gone and invaded Israel? Has North Korea gone and invaded the south? And how many people have these released documents killed? A whole lot of shoulda/woulda's, but no actual substance.

[El Kabong]

Miles you keep saying that governments are run by elites for elites and that no one is tending to the needs of the average ordinary citizen....well please, pretty please with a cherry on top show me a successful government that accommodated the average ordinary citizen and no corporations or elite group had little to no pull.

You won't be able to show me one because its like a unicorn, its a fantasy and that my friend is what liberalism is based on....fantasy

[Andre]

Isn't it Sweden that looks after their poor and elderly the best?

Or is someone else taking the piss?

[El Kabong]

Miles if you are under the illusion that Unions are neither political nor have elite members then that's fine....I tend to disagree. Unions have done great harm in the US and I think now that we have a Department of Labor that Unions in general are worthless other than being a group that uses strong arm tactics to ensure the Democrats keep some power. I know you're speaking specifically of England and you (like most other Brits) want to place 100% of the blame on Maggie Thatcher, but do tell me there was 0 corruption in those Unions and 0 intent from elite Union leaders to gain greater power in the government for THEMSELVES and not the average joe's out there, becasue I don't buy it for a second.

[Andre]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

[El Kabong]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

Basically...Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the Teamsters and had mob ties.

And miles their welfare is successful if you want the end result to be making people lazy because they have done exactly that. Lazy entitled people who do 0 to help the economy.

[Gandalf]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

Basically...Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the Teamsters and had mob ties.

And miles their welfare is successful if you want the end result to be making people lazy because they have done exactly that. Lazy entitled people who do 0 to help the economy.

Right Lyle, because socialism/welfare for the elite is an infinitely more preferable model. Give it to the bankers who messed up the world, but let's not give anything to the working people who cannot find work anymore. I would agree that some are lazy, but let's not generalise too much.