Top 5 P4P Now?

[Kev]

Just to put it out there. The pound for pound ratings just got updated. Here it is:

1. Manny
2. Floyd
3. Nonito
4. Sergio
5. Juan Manuel

Fucking hell I thought it was bad enough that Donaire had jumped to 3 but they seem to want to court as much controversy as possible.

Wonjongkam at number 6 (really??), Wlad at 7 and Giovani Segura at 10

Utterly bizarre.


Is there really the competition at 108lbs to justify being rated in the top 10 p4p?

There is so so so much more strength in depth in the lightweight-welterweight and super middleweight classes that I can only see this is some kind of political point, positive discrimination .

Calderon for all his skills would not have been successful were he a welterweight as he simply does not have the power. Super skilful guy but he did so well because he fought in a weak division where you don't need to be a complete fighter to be the best.

Segura is simply not as good a fighter as higher weight guys like Martinez, Ward, Froch, Hopkins, Marquez, Lopez, Bradley, Khan etc etc. He's champ in a weak division.

It's like being the undisputed woman's middleweight champ or something, yeah it's good and all, but you don't need to be as complete a fighter to win that as you would the men's middleweight title.

The Ring are losing my respect.

Bilbo that's utter bullshit, Malignaggi has zero power and is nowhere as skilled as Calderon, his combination punching, defense and movement would have led him to be successful at any weight if his size was different

Mallignaggi is actually a good reference imo. Decent boxer but not close to the elite guys. If Calderon had been a welter I don't think he beats the tops guys like Floyd, Mosley, Cotto, Berto etc. He has all the skills, but simply not enough power. I stand by that. He would still be a good and respected fighter, just not p4p.

Who has Calderon ever beat that was as good as Andre Berto even?

Just do a quick boxrec check of all the pro's

There are 311 Straw weight fighters compared to 1398 at welterweight

Please explain mathematically how the straw weight guys can have as much strength in depth as the welterweights?

plus the vast majority of the smallest guys are part timers as well.

There are 1000 more fighters at welterweight to overcome. It's mathematically impossible for the competition to be as high and it's clear to see. Guys like Hugo Cazares would never get a world title in the more competitive divisions.

It's a fact that you need to be a more complete fighter to win one of the stacked weight classes than you would the straw weight division.

[erics44]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

[Kev]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

Disagree. His first fight with Williams could have gone either way, many thought Williams won. And Williams, despite having a rather crude looking style is a very very effective fighter who was absolutely p4p worthy when he fought Martinez. He has beaten some good guys and Martinez argubaly went 2 up against him. Pavlik is a fine win and led himt o being the ring champ at 160 and a two weight world champ. Kintron is an acomplished fighter and I can only assume you didnt see the fight if you are counting that as a draw. Martinez KOd him in the middle rounds but he was allowed to continue, and he clearly outpointed him only to somehow get robbed in a frankly baffling decision.
He is a beast for anyone around those weight classes.

[erics44]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

Disagree. His first fight with Williams could have gone either way, many thought Williams won. And Williams, despite having a rather crude looking style is a very very effective fighter who was absolutely p4p worthy when he fought Martinez. He has beaten some good guys and Martinez argubaly went 2 up against him. Pavlik is a fine win and led himt o being the ring champ at 160 and a two weight world champ. Kintron is an acomplished fighter and I can only assume you didnt see the fight if you are counting that as a draw. Martinez KOd him in the middle rounds but he was allowed to continue, and he clearly outpointed him only to somehow get robbed in a frankly baffling decision.
He is a beast for anyone around those weight classes.

and a lot seem to agree with you

you could put a different spin on it tho

he lost to williams first time, yes williams is a good fighter but he still lost

pavlik was a good win but what state was pavlik in at the time? and wasnt it the same pavlik who had been taken apart by hopkins? ok at a higher weight but still a hopkins who himself had not long since fought at middleweight

and the cintron fight may have been a bad descision but cintron wasnt exactly in great form and he still won enough rounds to make the descison acceptable

he is a cracking fighter, but I dont think he has done enough to warrant top 5

[Rantcatrat]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

Disagree. His first fight with Williams could have gone either way, many thought Williams won. And Williams, despite having a rather crude looking style is a very very effective fighter who was absolutely p4p worthy when he fought Martinez. He has beaten some good guys and Martinez argubaly went 2 up against him. Pavlik is a fine win and led himt o being the ring champ at 160 and a two weight world champ. Kintron is an acomplished fighter and I can only assume you didnt see the fight if you are counting that as a draw. Martinez KOd him in the middle rounds but he was allowed to continue, and he clearly outpointed him only to somehow get robbed in a frankly baffling decision.
He is a beast for anyone around those weight classes.

and a lot seem to agree with you

you could put a different spin on it tho

he lost to williams first time, yes williams is a good fighter but he still lost

pavlik was a good win but what state was pavlik in at the time? and wasnt it the same pavlik who had been taken apart by hopkins? ok at a higher weight but still a hopkins who himself had not long since fought at middleweight

and the cintron fight may have been a bad descision but cintron wasnt exactly in great form and he still won enough rounds to make the descison acceptable

he is a cracking fighter, but I dont think he has done enough to warrant top 5

For one, I don't think you are considering that Martinez has accomplished this over two weight classes.

In addition, say what you want to say about Pavlik, but Pavlik was the universally recognized top middleweight in the world (AA had moved up in weight at that time) and probably a top 20 p4p fighter on most lists. His only loss of his whole career was to Hopkins at 170. Losing to a p4p fighter in Hopkins outside of your weight class isn't a bad loss.

Martinez beat Pavlik moving up in weight from 154 to 160.

Williams was a top ten p4p fighter on most lists at the time of each fight. Even if he lost to Williams the first time (many thought he won) he still lost a very close decision to a top ten p4p fighter. Recall that Marquez was completely and utterly dominated by Mayweather and barely went down at all in the p4p rankings. Bernard lost to Calzaghe and barely went down in the p4p rankings. The reason is that they both lost to other great p4p fighters. Either way, he then knocked out a top ten p4p Paul Williams in the rematch.

Beating the best middleweight in the world (top 20 p4p) and Paul Williams ( top ten p4p) gets you on the p4p list.

One more thing to add. Cintron was in fine form coming into that fight with Martinez. He had just beat Ndou and in his next fight he outboxed Alfredo Angulo.

Also, compare Martinez to other p4p guys. Look at Marquez. Marquez beat Kastidis, not a top 5 lightweight let alone p4p guy (I'm a huge fan, don't get me wrong), Diaz, not a top 5 lightweight and not very good, lost to Mayweather by a wide margin, Diaz again, and an old Casamayor who had just gone life and death with Kastidis. I'm not hating on Marquez, he should be top ten p4p. But, beating Paul Williams and Kelly Pavlik is better than anything he's done in his last 5 fights. How about comparing him to Donaire? Montiel (big win), Sidorenko (barely top ten in his division), Marquez (who?), Vargas (same), Concepion. I think a good argument can be made that Martinez's win over Paul Williams is as big as Donaire's over Montiel and his win over Pavlik is by far better than any name on Donaire's other four competitors. Yet, Donaire is a consensus top five p4p guy right now.

Either way, if Martinez beats Dzinziruk, the consensus top junior middleweight in the world, can we agree he should move back up to number three in the p4p list?

[erics44]

For one, I don't think you are considering that Martinez has accomplished this over two weight classes.

In addition, say what you want to say about Pavlik, but Pavlik was the universally recognized top middleweight in the world (AA had moved up in weight at that time) and probably a top 20 p4p fighter on most lists. His only loss of his whole career was to Hopkins at 170. Losing to a p4p fighter in Hopkins outside of your weight class isn't a bad loss.

Martinez beat Pavlik moving up in weight from 154 to 160.

Williams was a top ten p4p fighter on most lists at the time of each fight. Even if he lost to Williams the first time (many thought he won) he still lost a very close decision to a top ten p4p fighter. Recall that Marquez was completely and utterly dominated by Mayweather and barely went down at all in the p4p rankings. Bernard lost to Calzaghe and barely went down in the p4p rankings. The reason is that they both lost to other great p4p fighters. Either way, he then knocked out a top ten p4p Paul Williams in the rematch.

Beating the best middleweight in the world (top 20 p4p) and Paul Williams ( top ten p4p) gets you on the p4p list.

One more thing to add. Cintron was in fine form coming into that fight with Martinez. He had just beat Ndou and in his next fight he outboxed Alfredo Angulo.

Also, compare Martinez to other p4p guys. Look at Marquez. Marquez beat Kastidis, not a top 5 lightweight let alone p4p guy (I'm a huge fan, don't get me wrong), Diaz, not a top 5 lightweight and not very good, lost to Mayweather by a wide margin, Diaz again, and an old Casamayor who had just gone life and death with Kastidis. I'm not hating on Marquez, he should be top ten p4p. But, beating Paul Williams and Kelly Pavlik is better than anything he's done in his last 5 fights. How about comparing him to Donaire? Montiel (big win), Sidorenko (barely top ten in his division), Marquez (who?), Vargas (same), Concepion. I think a good argument can be made that Martinez's win over Paul Williams is as big as Donaire's over Montiel and his win over Pavlik is by far better than any name on Donaire's other four competitors. Yet, Donaire is a consensus top five p4p guy right now.

Either way, if Martinez beats Dzinziruk, the consensus top junior middleweight in the world, can we agree he should move back up to number three in the p4p list?

im not sure he has accomplished all this at 2 weights, the two wins that you are shouting about were at middleweight werent they?

look i can understand yours and everyones love for him, he is a great boxer and a nice fella, and alt6hough those 2 wins are great wins i dont think that is enough to bring him the status he seems to be getting

cintron previous 2 fights were a loss to margarito and a win against ndou who is a good boxer but everyone in the top 15 beats

[generalbulldog]

Just to put it out there. The pound for pound ratings just got updated. Here it is:

1. Manny
2. Floyd
3. Nonito
4. Sergio
5. Juan Manuel

Fucking hell I thought it was bad enough that Donaire had jumped to 3 but they seem to want to court as much controversy as possible.

Wonjongkam at number 6 (really??), Wlad at 7 and Giovani Segura at 10

Utterly bizarre.


Is there really the competition at 108lbs to justify being rated in the top 10 p4p?

There is so so so much more strength in depth in the lightweight-welterweight and super middleweight classes that I can only see this is some kind of political point, positive discrimination .

Calderon for all his skills would not have been successful were he a welterweight as he simply does not have the power. Super skilful guy but he did so well because he fought in a weak division where you don't need to be a complete fighter to be the best.

Segura is simply not as good a fighter as higher weight guys like Martinez, Ward, Froch, Hopkins, Marquez, Lopez, Bradley, Khan etc etc. He's champ in a weak division.

It's like being the undisputed woman's middleweight champ or something, yeah it's good and all, but you don't need to be as complete a fighter to win that as you would the men's middleweight title.

The Ring are losing my respect.

Bilbo that's utter bullshit, Malignaggi has zero power and is nowhere as skilled as Calderon, his combination punching, defense and movement would have led him to be successful at any weight if his size was different

Mallignaggi is actually a good reference imo. Decent boxer but not close to the elite guys. If Calderon had been a welter I don't think he beats the tops guys like Floyd, Mosley, Cotto, Berto etc. He has all the skills, but simply not enough power. I stand by that. He would still be a good and respected fighter, just not p4p.

Who has Calderon ever beat that was as good as Andre Berto even?

Just do a quick boxrec check of all the pro's

There are 311 Straw weight fighters compared to 1398 at welterweight

Please explain mathematically how the straw weight guys can have as much strength in depth as the welterweights?

plus the vast majority of the smallest guys are part timers as well.

There are 1000 more fighters at welterweight to overcome. It's mathematically impossible for the competition to be as high and it's clear to see. Guys like Hugo Cazares would never get a world title in the more competitive divisions.

It's a fact that you need to be a more complete fighter to win one of the stacked weight classes than you would the straw weight division.

I have to say you make an excellent point. Calderon wouldn't have what it takes to beat Mayweather, Pacman, Berto, Mosley, etc. In fact looking at boxing history the welterweight division has been the deepest in terms of talent, it's been like that for every generation if one were to think about it.

This is why when people compared the careers of say Ricardo Lopez and Sugar Ray Leonard, Leonard wins by a landslide. Lopez does look like the perfect fighter, but his level of competition pales in comparison to Leonard's so maybe that's why he looks so invincible. If Lopez was to take Leonard's place and fought Tommy Hearns, Duran, Benitez, at welterweight I don't think he comes out unscathed with a perfect career record that he has. But if you were to put Leonard as a strawweight I would put my money on it he goes undefeated.

This is why I think they should get rid of some of the lower weights to make it more competitive. Get rid of strawweight and jr. flyweight and start at flyweight (112) as the lowest weight class, probably get rid of the 115 lb weight class also. This would increase the level of competition imo. Too many damn weight classes which dilutes the level of competition.

And yeah I do agree Calderon would probably be another Paulie Maglinaggi if he was an welterweight. Great boxing ability but crappy power to hurt Mosley, Floyd, Pacman, etc.