p4p, legacy, and resume which one takes it? PBF,Pac, RJJ

[generalbulldog]

When Roy got KTFO by Tarver in the rematch and by Johnson he was 35 and when he lost to Calzaghe he was 39, not exactly what I call prime. About James Toney losing massive weight, he just defended his IBF SMW title against Charles Williams 3 1/2 months before fighting Roy so I fail to see where Toney had to lose massive weight, unless his walk around weight back then was in the 200+ range like it is today.

Pac and PBF's overall resume is better than Roy as I have said in my first post, but Roy's 2 big wins against prime and undefeated James Toney and Hopkins is better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins against anyone. Toney and Hopkins weren't old, past their prime, shot, on the decline or at a catchweight or out of their comfortable weight range, which PBF and Pac has a habit of doing. He outclass and beat them fairly easily. Roy in his prime also doesn't have controversial wins where it's debated that he lost like Pac against JMM or PBF against Castillo in the 1st fight. So yeah, I'm going by that Roy was even more dominant than those 2 when he was the p4p king.

Toney has long claimed that he was weight-drained for the Jones fight. Whether he was or not is immaterial, but it has the same value as RJJ's claims that he was drained for the Tarver & Road Warrior fights. Aside from that, I credit his win over Hopkins more because regardless of Hopkins being prime, I think he's a greater fighter. I don't credit a James Toney who struggled to beat a 35 year old Mike McCallum (lost imo), Reggie Johnson & Dave Tiberi (& he most certainly lost that one) as being any better than Oscar, Barrera, Mosley, Marquez or Morales. Pacquiao's first win against Barrera definitely trumps it imo.

I'll give you that RJJ doesn't have that controversial loss, but in all honesty he didn't fight opponents to give him that much of a challenge, Toney aside, but was that (at the time) any better than PBF's win over Corrales or Manny's over Cotto. Was it any less a 50/50 matchup than those.

As I've said, I think Roy is almost certainly the greatest athlete in the history of the sport, but the best find a way to look great when they are not at their peak, such as Pac-MAB 1 or PBF taking Mosley's biggest punch and coming back at him. Roy doesn't have that moment for me. When faced with adversity, he didn't have what they had, which along with my reasons above is why I rate him below.

Anyway that aside, Roy is still a great, I think the problem is when it comes to 'discrediting' wins because someone was old/shot/outweighed/weight-drained. I think it's easy to make excuses but they still have to get in there and win the fight. Of all those fights, the only one where I would possibly give some part to that excuse is Pac-Oscar where ODLH clearly looked in no fit shape to be in the ring, but still Manny had a gameplan to beat him and there's no reason that he wouldn't have had some success against a younger, stronger version. All these guys are for my money better at their peak than any of those they beat (RJJ & B-Hop is debatable, although I'd side with Roy), so there's no reason they couldn't have done it.


* Oh and no way did RJJ make Hopkins look like a bum, c'mon you're better than that kind of reckless hyperbole GB

I don't know whether or not Toney was weight drain against RJJ or not, he just got outclassed and dominated in almost every round due to Jones style and athleticism. Since he was the bigger star than RJJ then, maybe he should have argued for the fight to be taken place at a few pounds north of 168? I just fail to see it as a sign of weight drain since he did just finish defending his IBF title against Williams in a good competitive fight 3.5 months before facing Roy.

Of course RJJ didn't make Hopkins look like a bum but he did decisively beat Hopkins in that fight so long ago and that till this day no man inside that ring can claim. Even Hopkins admitted it himself that he thought he clearly lost.

The reason why I believe that RJJ's win over Hopkins and Toney are so much better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins is the status of the opponent and what they would do later in their careers. For instance some posters here like Miron Lang claims that Pac's win over MAB in '03 and JMM in '08 is better, but if one takes a look at it clearly, Toney and Hopkins with those defeats at the hands of Roy would later go on and do things that are extraordinary in the sport. Besides I feel that Hopkins is Jones greatest win because of what Hopkins would do later on in his legendary career and add to that he is clearly the better fighter in boxing history and is more accomplished than MAB in the sport, which would be Pac's biggest win. Corrales is usually cited as Floyd's biggest win but Hopkins is the better fighter more accomplished in the sport's history and is clearly an atg, Corrales is a hall of famer but not an atg and skill level isn't up there with Hopkins.

Look Floyd and Pac are great, I just feel that Roy is greater in that he was more dominant being p4p no. 1 and I felt that his 2 biggest wins were better than their 2 biggest wins. The only thing I would give those 2 is overall resume was better than Jones. If Jones had fought Benn, Eubank, McClellan, dariusz michalczewski, and Calzaghe earlier then his resume would be much better overall, but for various reasons it didn't happen, oh well.