Pacman vs JMM 11/5 2011 at.........145

[Gandalf]

145? If true then I am very upset. The ball is totally in Manny's favour and there is no hint of compromise as that is weight he weighs in at anyway. I am appalled actually.

No it's 144. He's sacrificing 1 pound from his last fight just like Cotto sacrificed 1 pound from his last fight. Let's say if JMM pulls off the upset, would you give JMM credit or would you discredit that win? Just asking out of curiosity.

Haha, 1 pound!

I would be totally amazed if he were to win.

Many of us thought Oscar would beat Pac because he was just too big. But Oscar actually went down an entire division to make the fight happen and Pac as brave as he was accepted the challenge and went up two.

Here the big difference is that Manny has grown into the weight, but is only willing to sacrifice a few hundred grammes. Marquez meanwhile is manfully upping two entire divisions.

So in terms of credit I would firstly like to say that Manny has diminished any credit if he gets the win by being such a fascist. Oscar was a complete gentleman in coming down, but Pac has obviously allowed his politics to influence his boxing and he now likes to dictate. If Marquez can somehow overcome this massive weight hurdle then he deserves full credit because he jumped through all the hoops to get to his prize.

144 is horrible really.

First off, Oscar didn't move down 1 entire division. He came down from 3 pounds from the Forbes fight which ironically was at a catchweight of 150, while he made a guy that had basically fought his entire career below 130 to jump up another 2 weight classes after moving up from 1 already to fight him. Yeah that's definitely gentlemanly of Oscar.

I just find it funny that people say pacquiao does not deserve any credit for beating Cotto even though Cotto came in 1 pound less than his previous fight. Whereas JMM negotiated Pac to come in 1 pound lighter than his previous fight and if he does beat Pac, he deserves all the credit?

Like I said, let's have some consistency shall we?

Oscar did move down a division. 150 is within the JMW limits and WW is the next step down. Sure, the Forbes fight 3 pounds above that, but Oscar had been at JMW for many years prior and coming back down to WW proper was clearly a BIG sacrifice. He made that compromise and got his Manny fight. Manny compromised by jumping a long way too.

The Oscar fight proved that Manny could fight at the 147 limit and that is why critics say that he should have done the same to face Cotto.

I have already explained why Manny loses the chance to gain massive credit if he beats Marquez at 144. He has made no sacrifice to give the fans a more equal playing field. Even Oscar, who we all criticised gave up something, but Manny gives up nothing. Meanwhile Marquez is being asked to jump all the hurdles.

Of course Marquez deserves the credit if he wins and of course Manny should be criticised right now for making the fight at a 144 CW. You don't expect a smaller guy to jump all the hurdles while you jump through none. That isn't credit worthy. Marquez has NO track record at WW. Manny prior to Cotto did, whence criticism of the CW.

The argument is pretty consistent.

Actually no, the argument isn't consistent. You can't pick and choose who to give credit to on the catchweights to some and then discredit it for others.

Since I've been here the argument is this:

It was wrong for Pac to fight Oscar at 147. Whereas it was right for Oscar to fight 40 year old Hopkins at 156 for his MW title.

It was wrong for Pac to fight and get credit for Cotto at 145 (1 pound less than his last fight). Whereas it will be right for JMM to fight Pac at 144 (1 pound less than his last fight) and deserves all the credit if he wins.

You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

The way I look at it, Oscar was wrong to insist on a CW trying to lure up the smaller guy. I don't blame Manny for that, he didn't really have any bargaining chips. But Oscar did give up those crucial pounds. By contrast with Manny in a similar situation now with Marquez, he is has all the bargaining chips, so is in the wrong. But to make it worse, he isn't willing to give more than a pound back to appease the fans who everyone knows will criticise the fight.

I believe it was wrong for the Cotto fight to be at a CW and said as much, but it was only a few pounds and so it wasn't a massive thing, significant but far less than what Manny/Marquez is. But I don't believe Cotto should have even conceded what he did as Manny had already proven he could fight at WW. I think it is Manny's best recent win, but the CW's only detract. Cotto could fight at WW, so could Manny, it should have been there.

The Oscar/Hops fight isn't something I agree with either. I hate CW's of this nature. Either Hops comes down or DLH goes up and just allows Hops to come in at what he wants. Still, like with Cotto/Pac it is still marginal and not huge which is what Pac/DLH and Pac/Marquez are.